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Alicorn comments on The Social Coprocessor Model - Less Wrong
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I would not actually say "Aaaaaaaugh." in that situation. I'd probably say "Excuse me?" and then there would need to be a rather excellent recovery or I'd stop interacting with the person. (I'm granting for the sake of the exercise that I'd ask for a drink in the first place, even though in real life I don't consume alcohol.)
Which is precisely why the offered hypothetical is worse than useless in this case.
Bear in mind that in the circumstance being discussed, asking for a drink is like asking someone to hand you $5 -- for no reason at all other than than that you asked, and the fact that they are a male.
To presume that you would react in a certain way, conditional upon first having done something so utterly foreign to you in the first place, is like saying what you'd do if the moon were made of green cheese, only ISTM you'd have a better chance of being right in that case. ;-)
Well, pretend the bar serves something I'd drink. Say I'd get a virgin pina colada. I could imagine asking for one of those.
I might also ask girls, if the environment gave me high enough priors on them being bi/gay.
So, your moral compass allows you to use other people's sexual preferences as a money pump?
(And no, that's not a line, although now that I've said it, I suppose it could be reworked into a LW-friendly response to a drink request. Needs more humor, less judgment, though! Hm, maybe "Are you trying to exploit my hardware preferences as a money pump?" A little too double-entrendreish, though. These things are really situational, and not at all suited to cached responses.)
I can't actually think of any situation where asking a question seems to me to be immoral. It can't be a denotative falsehood, so it's clear on the "lying" front; there's nothing else obvious it could be that would be wrong. I suppose it could be mean, or impolite, but this doesn't even appear to be that to me. I wouldn't badger anybody about buying me the beverage, which would be mean.
This is a request which is slightly different from a question. Some requests are considered immoral when there is a power or status differential. University lecturers and students provide an example where some requests are widely considered immoral.
Point. Questions/requests that predictably create a sense of obligation in the hearer to do something they ought not feel obligated to perform may be wrong. I don't think I can, let alone do, project enough power in a casual setting to make anyone feel obliged to buy me the liquid of my choice, although I suppose it's possible I'm mistaken.
Refusing makes the guy look bad, unless he has a particularly adept response. The request becomes "buy me a drink, or go through status shenanigans to not look bad." That's not exactly obligation, but it is a form of social pressure.
Asking for $5 (well, probably $7-8 if it's not a beer) isn't exactly obligation, either. Is that a request you would make of both men and women? If not, why not? And how it is different to a request from a drink, other than the latter being wrapped up in more social frills (and combined with more social pressure)?
If anyone is saying "excuse me?" shouldn't it be the person being asked for the drink (aka $7)? The only problem is that if men make this response, they look bad, due to the context-specific social power differential.
Yes, I said so elsewhere.
Right, my question here was whether you would ask both men and women for $7 on its own. I should have made that clearer.
And if not, how it asking for a $7 drink different?
There is also an implied contract with most requests. Many people if asked to buy a stranger a drink will assume that agreeing to the request will result in an opportunity for conversation at least. If someone makes the request with an understanding of the implied trade and no intention of fulfilling their half of the bargain then that seems at least dishonest if not actually immoral.
I wouldn't request a favor like this from someone I didn't plan to have at least a short conversation with. (I would ask smaller favors, like that they tell me the time, or more urgent favors, like that they loan me their cell phone so I can call my ride, but a drink is neither negligible nor particularly important.)
Maybe you wouldn't. I'm just giving an example of another way that a question/request could be seen to be immoral.
Okay, this has me curious - is there actually a subset of pickup that is designed to tell me what to do, instead of telling people what to do to me? That would be news to me.
And apparently a "Playette FAQ" as well. (It makes heavy use of PUA terminology like "one-itis" and "IOI", though.)
I haven't really read ASFin almost 20 years, so I didn't know about the Playette stuff. Funny story, though: I can attest to the value of the "whiff" technique in the Playette FAQ, because my wife used it in our first email and phone conversations, back in 1992... and well, um, it worked out pretty well for both of us. ;-)
*pokes around*
Meh. This reminds me of advice columns, only with worse punctuation.
That depends on what exactly your goal is. Typical men can boost their sexual attractiveness to women by changing their behavior far more than vice versa, so it's unsurprising that there is a much greater body of expertise aimed at men in this regard. Also, getting sex is pretty much trivial for women and requires no particular skill. However, commitment and long-term relationship strategies are important and nontrivial for women too, and on better game-oriented blogs, I've often seen good discussions about the mistakes women make in this regard. Trouble is, realistic treatments of this issue tend to bring up even more ugly truths and end up sounding even less PC than the ordinary PUA stuff.
Can you give a couple examples?
Alicorn:
Like in everything else, humans make bad decisions due to biases in matters of mating and pairing too. However, these particular biases are male- and female-specific, and pointing out the latter is easily perceived by women as an affront to their sex, which makes realistic discussion very hard.
But since you're asking, here are some instances of such biases. None of them are universal, but each is held strongly by non-negligible numbers of women and leads them to decisions they later regret. One example is when women overestimate the attractiveness of men they can realistically hope to attract for serious permanent commitment, given the higher attractiveness of men they can attract for temporary relationships and short-term flings without any real commitment on the man's part. Another is when women underestimate the speed with which their looks and reproductive abilities deteriorate with age. Yet another is the refusal to acknowledge that women can be greatly attracted to some very nasty personality types of men, not despite them but because of them (google "dark triad"), which leads some women to entering disastrous relationships with such men. Then there are also many wrong beliefs about what personality characteristics of women are truly attractive and pleasant to men and apt to attract their loyalty and commitment in the long run.
There are other examples too, many of which would probably sound more controversial. Even these I listed can provoke much worse reactions when put in less abstract and detached terms, which is typically necessary when forming concrete advice.
You're bi, right? You could probably make use of much of the advice for straight men if you wanted.
I find it nasty to read. It's not intended for me, even if I'd be interested in some of the people it's about interacting with.
This is a general comment about the PUA material I've read.
It comes off as lonely. There's no hint of enjoying someone's company, or hope that a someone could enjoy the writer's company if not manipulated into it.
Yes. Sometimes I get a sense of simmering resentment underneath it all, especially on the subject of "nice guys" vs. "jackasses".
What the PUA people call "day game" (approaching women in everyday life, instead of bars and clubs) can verge on the concept of enjoyable company, but from my limited reading on the subject they don't seem to cover day game nearly as much. They say it's more difficult than "night game".
It's a little like something in a famous essay by Eric Raymond on "good porn" vs. "bad porn". (Just google on those phrases to find a copy -- I don't care to do that search from a machine at work.) Following a personally conducted scientific examination of porn pictures on the web, he concluded that men looking for porn are not looking for depictions of attractive young women posed as if about to have enjoyable sex with the viewer. The porn industry knows what sells, and pictures of that sort, that Raymond called "good porn", formed only a small minority. They are looking for what he classified as "bad porn": pictures of an absolutely joyless activity, all hard faces, cold stares, and fetishistic trappings.
ETA: Eric Raymond's essay is on his own blog here, and he's updated some of the links that were broken when I first read it, so you can see some of his experimental samples.
Yes: It's so bitter and so full of blame for the vast sea of women who didn't respond as desired to "niceness".
I think you have had your opinion coloured by encountering people in the anger phase of the denial, anger, acceptance progression of changing beliefs in the light of new evidence.
I find the resentment off-putting too, and as in any other area of human concern, there is indeed a lot of unjustified feeling of entitlement. However, it should be noted that the main reason for the resentment is the rules-hypocrisy. Many men are indeed too clueless to figure out the disconnect between the official attitudes and values that are professed piously in our culture and the actual rules of the status game that it's taboo to discuss openly (so that such discussions are corralled off to disreputable venues like the PUA culture). Can you really blame them for being frustrated when they naively play by the official rules and end up scorned as low-status losers, or for acting out a bit when they finally realize what's been going on?
This isn't about blame, it's about revulsion, and possibly about anger and fear.
You're sympathizing with the men, which is natural-- without speculating about details, your experience is more like theirs. Try imagining dating one of them, or being in a relationship with them-- if that's too much of a strain, try imagining reading a forum of women who are that hurt and angry about men.
I have often been bitterly amused at how the "Yes, but..." speeches on the misogyny often perpetrated by Western socially/sexually deprived men, on the one hand, and the crime often perpetrated by lower-class Afro-Americans, on the other hand, often end up disquietingly similar.
And with good reason; in both cases, we have angry, alienated young men who are least able to cope with the systemic oppression of their social group, least willing to play by the rules that treat them unfairly, spiral into hatred and evil, bringing even more scorn upon their group and the peaceful advocates in it, and inadverently creating good conditions for the "natural-born" antisocial/immoral assholes who wear their colors.
-Martin Luther King
Sadly, for now the MRAs/gender egalitarians seem to be doing far worse than even American blacks - see the bitter split with feminism, and the inability of similarly-minded feminists and MRAs to leave behind the sectarianism. (This collective blog that HughRistik writes for is the kind of collaboration that I'd like to see way more of on the gender front.)
Depends where you look. Some of that stuff is indeed written in such tone, and it's true that some of it advises sly and dishonest tactics. On the other hand, here's the story of a man who saved his marriage by applying insights he gained on game websites (the blog might be NSFW for foul language, though it's on the blogroll of Overcoming Bias):
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/
For me, that story seems awfully depressing. Nothing in the story suggested to me that the man loved his wife or that his wife loved him. Game may have permitted them to have a more harmonious marriage, and evidently better sex, but not a relationship that seemed based on mutual love and respect.
It may be that the marriage was just too flawed to begin with; it's also possible, given that the writer was writing for Roissy's blog, that he consciously left details and color about love out of his narrative. But from what he has actually written, he's not describing the sort of marriage that I would want to be a part of.
Agreed. I also noticed that there was basically nothing about the wife's individual personality. She could have been anybody, as long as she was gameable.
And the couple of tidbits that don't sound dreadful and nasty to me, do sound like they are okay by accident - the theory sounds like bullshit, it's just a stopped clock right twice a day. Example:
Panicking when one's faithfulness is questioned is bad, but not because it's "beta" and signifies fear of the wife or something - but because if the question causes panic, that might be because there's cheating going on and he fears being caught. The post recommends teasing. That is better than panic (ymmv), but my guess would be that even better would be a perfectly calm and deadpanned: "No." Or a longer sentence, but just as declarative: "I am not cheating on you." No details or explanations or protestations. Presenting concrete evidence (unless asked for it!) might or might not hurt, but it probably won't help, especially if you can come up with it too quickly - readily thought-of evidence could be planted, or might signify that you've already considered what to say if asked because there's some reason to expect her to ask you wanted to be prepared for.
The problem with this approach is that factual statements can be argued with, putting you back into the same place as before -- i.e., having an argument where you're being accused of something. The "agree and amplify" approach has the tactical advantage that it leaves the other person with no place to escalate to, and can be repeated more or less indefinitely.
(Note: I'm not commenting here on the (un)desirability of having an adversarial relationship like that to begin with, just pointing to a tactical advantage of the proposed "agree and amplify" over a flat assertion or denial. Another advantage, btw, is that it can actually make the accuser paradoxically feel listened to/accepted/validated in a way that disagreement does not. My wife has actually successfully used this tactic on me when I've been annoyed at some minor thing - the old, "yes, I did do that, and I did it just to annoy you" routine. ;-) )
The incident described in the piece doesn't involve the possibility of cheating at all.
As I mentioned once before but should mention again since you linked to his blog, Roissy is not representative of PUAs. He is like most of the worst things about PUAs, plus some other flaws of his own, all packed together. He's attracted a lot of attention outside the seduction community, but virtually nobody inside it knows who he is or cares about him.
I think you're making the mistake of judging him for his theatrics and shock-value approach. Once you get past the swaggering style, tune in to his sense of humor, and figure out which commenters are worth reading, I'd say his blog is by far the best place for all but the most technical discussions of all aspects of male-female interactions. This doesn't mean I endorse all he has to say, of course, but the level of insight far surpasses the other game/PUA sites I've seen. (I don't think it's for nothing that Robin Hanson links to him.)
In particular, I'm struck by the quality of many commenters I've seen there through the years, though in this regard, the blog is past its prime (and even back in the past, you had to sift through the detritus of unmoderated comments to find the gems). What many people might find strange is that lots of the regulars there are women, some of them extremely smart and cultured, though it's actually not surprising when you consider that it's an environment where the usual rules-hypocrisy is thrown out the window.
All in all, there is certainly much there to be offended by, and in fact, for lots of that stuff, one is required to be offended by it according to the official respectable standards of our culture. Yet anyone striving to eliminate biases about these topics should find much of the insight offered there worthwhile.