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pjeby comments on The Social Coprocessor Model - Less Wrong
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So, your moral compass allows you to use other people's sexual preferences as a money pump?
(And no, that's not a line, although now that I've said it, I suppose it could be reworked into a LW-friendly response to a drink request. Needs more humor, less judgment, though! Hm, maybe "Are you trying to exploit my hardware preferences as a money pump?" A little too double-entrendreish, though. These things are really situational, and not at all suited to cached responses.)
I can't actually think of any situation where asking a question seems to me to be immoral. It can't be a denotative falsehood, so it's clear on the "lying" front; there's nothing else obvious it could be that would be wrong. I suppose it could be mean, or impolite, but this doesn't even appear to be that to me. I wouldn't badger anybody about buying me the beverage, which would be mean.
This is a request which is slightly different from a question. Some requests are considered immoral when there is a power or status differential. University lecturers and students provide an example where some requests are widely considered immoral.
Point. Questions/requests that predictably create a sense of obligation in the hearer to do something they ought not feel obligated to perform may be wrong. I don't think I can, let alone do, project enough power in a casual setting to make anyone feel obliged to buy me the liquid of my choice, although I suppose it's possible I'm mistaken.
Refusing makes the guy look bad, unless he has a particularly adept response. The request becomes "buy me a drink, or go through status shenanigans to not look bad." That's not exactly obligation, but it is a form of social pressure.
Asking for $5 (well, probably $7-8 if it's not a beer) isn't exactly obligation, either. Is that a request you would make of both men and women? If not, why not? And how it is different to a request from a drink, other than the latter being wrapped up in more social frills (and combined with more social pressure)?
If anyone is saying "excuse me?" shouldn't it be the person being asked for the drink (aka $7)? The only problem is that if men make this response, they look bad, due to the context-specific social power differential.
Yes, I said so elsewhere.
Right, my question here was whether you would ask both men and women for $7 on its own. I should have made that clearer.
And if not, how it asking for a $7 drink different?
I would not ask a stranger for money unless I had an urgent, immediate need for it and no other way to get it. Asking for a drink seems different in much the same way that asking my friends for books instead of money on my birthday seems different. The drink provides a context for some sort of interaction; the money doesn't.
Which is precisely why it's a status move: you are placing an implicit pricetag on your continued interaction, and therefore implicitly asserting that your status/value is such that you can demand a payment of tribute for nothing more than the chance of remaining in your good graces.
Whether this were your intention or not, it's the situation the man is placed in, unless he has the cojones (and possibly training) to be able to refuse with impunity.
Or they are just showing a sign of desiring social interaction and they have culturally ingrained that the way to do so is to ask for a drink (disclaimer: I've never actually seen this occur). One may be assuming a lot more about unconscious status inquiring that is more in the category of just silly cultural norms.
I'm a little mystified by your analogy, and what you are intending to show with it. Being treated like the birthday girl (or boy) is a form of special treatment that happens once a year. It's not your birthday every time you go out, right? Giving birthday presents between friends is generally mutual, yet you've made no mention of the drink buying being mutual. Furthermore, giving birthday presents happens when people know each other and already have an interaction, rather than being a precondition for an interaction occurring.
Since getting presents on one's birthday is a form of special treatment, doesn't your analogy suggest that expecting/requesting drinks to be bought for oneself is an expectation/request for year-round special treatment? And doesn't asking for drinks look even worse when we remember that buying birthday presents among friends in mutual, while women asking for drinks aren't expecting to reciprocate and buy the guy a drink the next night?
I actually receive a fair number of gifts on non-special occasions too, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.
I haven't mentioned buying a reciprocal drink, but this is largely because I have idiosyncratic neuroses about money, not because it wouldn't occur to me as something appropriate to do.
Have you ever thought about why this is? The social dynamics of gift giving is a pretty interesting topic in itself.
I don't know why in general. In my case, I hate surprises, and am pretty good at getting my friends to indulge this hate by not getting me things that I haven't pre-approved. Since I'm neurotic about money and tend to not spend it unless it's really, really important, this means that the average gift I get from a friend is more useful to me than the equivalent amount of money (which I'd basically never spend), especially since when I use the gift I think of the friend and get some utility from that.
There is also an implied contract with most requests. Many people if asked to buy a stranger a drink will assume that agreeing to the request will result in an opportunity for conversation at least. If someone makes the request with an understanding of the implied trade and no intention of fulfilling their half of the bargain then that seems at least dishonest if not actually immoral.
I wouldn't request a favor like this from someone I didn't plan to have at least a short conversation with. (I would ask smaller favors, like that they tell me the time, or more urgent favors, like that they loan me their cell phone so I can call my ride, but a drink is neither negligible nor particularly important.)
Maybe you wouldn't. I'm just giving an example of another way that a question/request could be seen to be immoral.