mattnewport comments on More art, less stink: Taking the PU out of PUA - Less Wrong

66 Post author: XFrequentist 10 September 2010 12:25AM

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Comment author: jacob_cannell 11 September 2010 05:40:38PM *  1 point [-]

To the extent that PUA skills increase unconscious signals that women find attractive, it may have a net benefit for women by upping the typical attractiveness of the dating pool, as Sarah points out.

Yes, excellent point. But the reason is not, as you think, because PUAs are duping women. The reason that PUAs provide a net benefit for women is that over time, they actually grow into men who fulfills women's criteria.

Deliberating sending out signals that match women's unconscious detectors for high socioeconomic status is duping in a sense, in a similar sense that makeup is duping. You could say that the signals themselves are the criteria, but even a peacock's tail is a health indicator to a degree. I contrast that with actual active duping - bullshitting.

In social reality, if you can get yourself and a bunch of other people to believe an assessment of yourself, and that assessment isn't based on blatant factual errors, then it becomes true.

The socially reality a PUA constructs can be based on blatant factual errors, and this is exactly the duping of the second type that I was discussing.

So it depends on what exactly is being faked and to what extent.

In your view, what exactly are PUAs faking, and to what extent? What is the "bullshit and dishonesty" that they employ?

A more novice PUA may use canned material and routines to fake a level of social status and charisma that the PUA does not actually possess. That is duping in the weaker sense of 'false signaling'.

Duping in the stronger sense is outright dishonesty. A PUA who spins amazing stories about being an independent film director and movies he has made blah blah but in fact is a dental assistant or something. PUA then convinces a women that he has a genuine interest in her. If she then later sleeps with him, it would be based largely on a false image and false pretense. That is the dark arts bullshit and dishonesty I was referring to. Obviously PUA-dom is a diverse and broad set of folks, and most aren't like that. But some are, and this is the aspect of PUA that women dislike.

A PUA's behavioral standard shouldn't change just because of the PUA label - a guy who engaged in the above would be generally considered a douchebag by most people - PUA or not.

I don't see PUAs as being any worse choices for women to date than non-PUAs of the same level of attractiveness

I suspect it's a little more complex than that. A guy who is really into PUA is probably not at a LTR stage in his life. But of course not all women are looking for that either.

Comment author: mattnewport 11 September 2010 05:43:04PM 1 point [-]

Sending out unconscious signals that match women's unconscious detectors for high socioeconomic status is duping in a sense, in a similar sense that makeup is duping.

Not if you have high socioeconomic status (and I would guess PUAs are above average in this regard due to the prevalence of science/engineering/software types).

Comment author: wedrifid 11 September 2010 06:46:05PM 0 points [-]

Not if you have high socioeconomic status (and I would guess PUAs are above average in this regard due to the prevalence of science/engineering/software types).

Not to mention all the extra options they have when it comes to advancing their careers - 'climbing the ladder' so to speak.