wedrifid comments on More art, less stink: Taking the PU out of PUA - Less Wrong

66 Post author: XFrequentist 10 September 2010 12:25AM

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Comment author: jacob_cannell 11 September 2010 05:40:38PM *  1 point [-]

To the extent that PUA skills increase unconscious signals that women find attractive, it may have a net benefit for women by upping the typical attractiveness of the dating pool, as Sarah points out.

Yes, excellent point. But the reason is not, as you think, because PUAs are duping women. The reason that PUAs provide a net benefit for women is that over time, they actually grow into men who fulfills women's criteria.

Deliberating sending out signals that match women's unconscious detectors for high socioeconomic status is duping in a sense, in a similar sense that makeup is duping. You could say that the signals themselves are the criteria, but even a peacock's tail is a health indicator to a degree. I contrast that with actual active duping - bullshitting.

In social reality, if you can get yourself and a bunch of other people to believe an assessment of yourself, and that assessment isn't based on blatant factual errors, then it becomes true.

The socially reality a PUA constructs can be based on blatant factual errors, and this is exactly the duping of the second type that I was discussing.

So it depends on what exactly is being faked and to what extent.

In your view, what exactly are PUAs faking, and to what extent? What is the "bullshit and dishonesty" that they employ?

A more novice PUA may use canned material and routines to fake a level of social status and charisma that the PUA does not actually possess. That is duping in the weaker sense of 'false signaling'.

Duping in the stronger sense is outright dishonesty. A PUA who spins amazing stories about being an independent film director and movies he has made blah blah but in fact is a dental assistant or something. PUA then convinces a women that he has a genuine interest in her. If she then later sleeps with him, it would be based largely on a false image and false pretense. That is the dark arts bullshit and dishonesty I was referring to. Obviously PUA-dom is a diverse and broad set of folks, and most aren't like that. But some are, and this is the aspect of PUA that women dislike.

A PUA's behavioral standard shouldn't change just because of the PUA label - a guy who engaged in the above would be generally considered a douchebag by most people - PUA or not.

I don't see PUAs as being any worse choices for women to date than non-PUAs of the same level of attractiveness

I suspect it's a little more complex than that. A guy who is really into PUA is probably not at a LTR stage in his life. But of course not all women are looking for that either.

Comment author: wedrifid 11 September 2010 05:55:35PM *  5 points [-]

A more novice PUA may use canned material and routines to fake a level of social status and charisma that the PUA does not actually possess.

Fake charisma? That is a hair's breadth (or less) away from being an oxymoron.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 11 September 2010 06:22:05PM *  0 points [-]

Not really - the particular case would be a novice PUA who can fake charisma through 4 hours of prepared material, but thereafter just reverts to his normal geeky self.

Fake charisma.

Comment author: wedrifid 11 September 2010 06:40:12PM 6 points [-]

That was the kind of case I was considering. Moreover, if someone can successfully have a 4 hour interaction with prepared material then that's a damn impressive achievement. Managing the flow of a conversation such that you can use that much canned material without the interaction being grossly stilted is extremely difficult and it is the presentation far more so than the material itself that conveys charisma.

Fake charisma. ... a hair's breadth (or less) away from being an oxymoron.

Comment author: HughRistik 11 September 2010 09:43:07PM 6 points [-]

The thing is, if you can have 4 hours of charismatic conversation, and do this several times, the self that you revert back to will slowly get more charismatic.

This is like putting on makeup that actually makes the face more beautiful when taken off.

I'm not so worried about this sort of faking, because it trains you to develop the real thing that you are faking.

Comment author: wedrifid 12 September 2010 05:47:07PM 0 points [-]

This is like putting on makeup that actually makes the face more beautiful when taken off.

Tretinoin. Thoroughly recommended!