PhilGoetz comments on Open Thread: May 2010, Part 2 - Less Wrong

3 Post author: Kevin 20 May 2010 07:30PM

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Comment author: RobinZ 26 May 2010 02:31:53PM *  2 points [-]

I apologize - what I meant wasn't "drop the subject of consciousness", but "don't use the specific word 'consciousness'":

Yesterday we saw how replacing terms with definitions could reveal the empirical unproductivity of the classical Aristotelian syllogism:

All [mortal, ~feathers, biped] are mortal;
Socrates is a [mortal, ~feathers, biped];
Therefore Socrates is mortal.

But the principle applies much more broadly:

Albert: "A tree falling in a deserted forest makes a sound."
Barry: "A tree falling in a deserted forest does not make a sound."

Clearly, since one says "sound" and one says "~sound", we must have a contradiction, right? But suppose that they both dereference their pointers before speaking:

Albert: "A tree falling in a deserted forest matches [membership test: this event generates acoustic vibrations]."
Barry: "A tree falling in a deserted forest does not match [membership test: this event generates auditory experiences]."

Now there is no longer an apparent collision - all they had to do was prohibit themselves from using the word sound. If "acoustic vibrations" came into dispute, we would just play Taboo again and say "pressure waves in a material medium"; if necessary we would play Taboo again on the word "wave" and replace it with the wave equation. (Play Taboo on "auditory experience" and you get "That form of sensory processing, within the human brain, which takes as input a linear time series of frequency mixes.")

Besides the original essay linked and quoted above, there's elaboration on the value of the exercise here.

Edit: For example, were I to begin to contribute to this conversation, I would probably talk about self-awareness, the internal trace of successive experiences attended to, and the narrative chains of internal monologue or dialogue that we observe and recall on introspection - not "consciousness".

Comment author: PhilGoetz 27 May 2010 06:47:44PM 1 point [-]

The "tree falling in a forest" question was posed before people knew that sound was caused by vibrations, or even that sound was a physical phenomenon. It wasn't asking the same question it's asking now. It may have been intended to ask, "Is sound a physical phenomenon?"

Comment author: SilasBarta 27 May 2010 06:56:50PM *  6 points [-]

Confession: I always assumed (until EY's article, believe it or not!) that the "tree falling in a forest ..." philosophical dilemma was asking whether the tree makes vibrations.

That is, I thought the issue it's trying to address is, "If nothing is around to verify the vibrations, how do you know the vibrations really happen in that circumstance? What keeps you from believing that whenever nobody's around [nor e.g. any sensor], the vibrations just don't happen?"

(In yet other words, a question about belief in the implied invisible, or inaudible as the case may be.)

Over what period, exactly, was the question widely accepted to be making a point about the difference between vibrations and auditory experiences, as Eliezer seemed to imply is the common understanding?

Comment author: JoshuaZ 27 May 2010 07:20:09PM 2 points [-]

I've encountered people asking the question with both meanings or sometimes a combination of meanings. Like many of these questions of a similar form, the questions are often so muddled as to be close to useless.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 27 May 2010 07:01:25PM *  3 points [-]

The "tree falling in a forest" question was posed before people knew that sound was caused by vibrations, or even that sound was a physical phenomenon.

I don't think that's correct. The notion that sound is vibrations in air dates back to at least Aristotle. See for example here

Comment author: PhilGoetz 28 May 2010 05:13:53PM 0 points [-]

I don't know, but Aristotle's writings were not well-known in Europe from the 6th through the end of the 12th centuries. They were re-introduced via the Crusades.

Comment author: RobinZ 27 May 2010 06:55:39PM 1 point [-]

Do you have a citation for that? The earliest reference I see is Berkeley.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 28 May 2010 05:16:02PM *  0 points [-]

I don't. Sorry, I thought the question was medieval, but now can't remember why I thought that. Probably just from giving the question-asker the benefit of the doubt. If the original asker was Berkeley, then it was just a stupid question.