Tyrrell_McAllister comments on On Enjoying Disagreeable Company - Less Wrong

49 Post author: Alicorn 26 May 2010 01:47AM

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Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 26 May 2010 02:58:22AM 2 points [-]

Evidently, she doesn't think that it would be instrumentally useful to like you. Perhaps you can sympathize, since you don't seem to think that it would be instrumentally useful to like her.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 03:26:00AM *  2 points [-]

Yes, but at least I want to lift off the albatross of having to avoid replying her comments (and her mine) even when it adds to the discussion and is not specifically directed at her. The advice she's given in this article (and past ones) show she believes herself to be an expert on this, but won't take even this reasonable step.

Comment author: Mass_Driver 26 May 2010 02:04:47PM 9 points [-]

Yes, but at least I want to lift off the albatross of having to avoid replying her comments (and her mine) even when it adds to the discussion.

In my opinion, you are a poor judge of when a reply to Alicorn's comments will add to a discussion. Your judgment seems to me to be biased strongly in favor of deciding to reply to Alicorn's comments so as to highlight what you see as their shortcomings, possibly because you wish to lower her status. Thus, what you see as a useful contribution might be seen by others as the latest in a series of unwarranted snarky put-downs.

Therefore, if your primary desire is to discuss general issues that Alicorn also contributes to, you should take great pains to make it clear that you are not attempting to interact with Alicorn, much less disparage her. Concretely, this means that you would:

(1) not address Alicorn in the second person (2) not state or imply that Alicorn's posts are worthless or nearly worthless (3) not ask, directly or indirectly, what Alicorn's opinion on a subject is

but would instead

(4) make assertions about an abstract topic, using the third person (5) use polite phrases like "no offense," "nothing personal," or "in my opinion" (6) ask for the opinion of other LW commenters in general or for the opinion of specific named LWers who you get along with.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 26 May 2010 03:04:59PM *  10 points [-]

Minor note- the phrases "nothing personal" and "no offense" can often have the exact opposite of the intended result. Tthey can come across as condescending and very often when people use them they really are trying to be offensive, although they may not realize it. (A relevant quote from me from about 10 years ago "No offense, but the only thing saving that argument from being completely stupid is that sections of it are incoherent." (Yes, I'd like to think I don't say things like that now)). And "in my opinion" is very rarely useful unless the point being made is that one is a subject matter expert. It also personalizes things unnecessarily in the same way that the 2nd person does, just to a lesser extent.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 09:37:03PM *  2 points [-]

In my opinion, you are a poor judge of when a reply to Alicorn's comments will add to a discussion. Your judgment seems to me to be biased strongly in favor of deciding to reply to Alicorn's comments so as to highlight what you see as their shortcomings, possibly because you wish to lower her status.

It probably appears that way because in all the cases since ~Nov '09 when I have a substantive reply to an Alicorn comment, I just don't make it because of this ban. So all the remaining ones you see will be less engaging and productive. Hey -- maybe we should lift that ban ... oh, wait.

Therefore, if your primary desire is to discuss general issues that Alicorn also contributes to, you should take great pains to make it clear that you are not attempting to interact with Alicorn, much less disparage her.

I feel I have already demonstrated mastery of this in such comments as these. I don't see how any reasonable person would find those offensive, even as they violate your extensive standards.

As for your (1) to (4) -- yeah, that's an inconvenient, ridiculous set of hoops to jump through, which is why I want to get to the root of our disagreement, and eliminate the need to have to walk through a minefield to exchange ideas. Why doesn't Alicorn want the same? You tell me.

Comment author: Mass_Driver 27 May 2010 04:17:15AM 1 point [-]

I am not going to vote on or address the content of this post because, in my opinion, it engages in doublespeak and straw-manning. I have a blanket policy of not responding to such tactics on an Internet forum. I am extremely unlikely to make further public comments on the Alicorn-SilasBarta dispute(s).

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 26 May 2010 03:35:42AM 5 points [-]

The advice she's given in this article (and past ones) show she believes herself to be an expert on this, but won't take even this reasonable step.

She is not claiming to be an expert on recognizing when it would be good to like someone. Here is her claim of knowledge:

As such, it's very handy to be able to like someone you want to like deliberately when it doesn't happen by itself. There are three basic components to liking someone on purpose. . . .

There is really no contradiction or hypocrisy here unless you are someone whom she wants to like deliberately.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 03:43:41AM *  1 point [-]

It's not necessary that I be someone she wants to like; the advice is just as relevant for canceling out dislike. And the extensive demands she makes out of that dislike suggest she doesn't actually use this advise in at least one clear case where the dislike is having severe consequences.

Seriously, if the mere sight of a comment of mine replying to her -- no matter what it says, no matter how impersonal -- causes "undesirable peripheral psychological effects", effects that must be elaborately justified by others in order for her to consider enduring them ... you fill in the blank.

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 26 May 2010 04:31:32AM 6 points [-]

It's not necessary that I be someone she wants to like; the advice is just as relevant for canceling out dislike.

Granted, her advice is also relevant to canceling out dislike of someone whom you've already decided that you don't want to dislike. But since she evidently has not made that decision with regard to you, it wouldn't be appropriate for her to use her advice in this case. The relationship that you two have is not in a state where her advice is relevant. If Alicorn started writing posts about when one ought to like someone, then your criticisms would be relevant.

But her advice here is just not relevant to cases where one has decided that one really ought to dislike the other person.

Comment author: kodos96 26 May 2010 04:18:01AM 9 points [-]

Seriously, if the mere sight of a comment of mine replying to her -- no matter what it says, no matter how impersonal

Look, I don't claim to know the entire history of Silas v Alicorn... but I think you would have a much easier time making your case if the comments you made in this very thread hadn't been so unnecessarily antagonistic.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 04:26:10AM 1 point [-]

Alright, so having been convinced I have something important to add, you decide that whatever I did to get you to that point was inappropriate. Fair enough.

But tell me, where would be the appropriate place to point out that this Alicorn is completely different from the one I've come to know? As far as possible from where she promotes her deep wisdom? Or near?

Comment author: kodos96 26 May 2010 04:45:06AM 1 point [-]

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 04:48:08AM -2 points [-]

Rhetorical question: Is here the best place to bring up the failures of her advice?

Non-rhetorical question.If I have evidence that suggests Alicorn acts completely differently than implied by this article, what is the best way to go about it, that would have (potentially) convinced you of its merit?

Comment author: kodos96 26 May 2010 05:10:06AM *  7 points [-]

Rhetorical question: Is here the best place to bring up the failures of her advice?

I'm not sure how this question is rhetorical, since it seems to have a perfectly straightforward answer: here would be a perfectly suitable place to bring up failures of her advice, if such failures actually existed.

We've made this point so many times now I feel silly even typing it again, but maybe one more time will do it: her advice has not failed. She wrote an article about how to go about intentionally liking someone. The fact that she's chosen not to intentionally like you is not evidence that she is incapable of doing so in other cases, nor that the advice may not be useful to others.

Non-rhetorical question.If I have evidence that suggests Alicorn acts completely differently than implied by this article, what is the best way to go about it, that would have (potentially) convinced you of its merit?

Since she makes no claims about when or under what circumstances she makes use of the described method, the only thing I read the article to imply about her behavior is that she has had, on at least one occasion, some success in applying this method. So convincing me of the merit of the proposition that this is false would require documentary evidence of her entire life, exhaustively showing a complete absence of any instance of success with this method. Yes, that's a tall order, but you're the one who's trying to prove a negative.

Comment author: HughRistik 27 May 2010 05:12:55AM *  19 points [-]

She wrote an article about how to go about intentionally liking someone. The fact that she's chosen not to intentionally like you is not evidence that she is incapable of doing so in other cases, nor that the advice may not be useful to others.

Isn't Alicorn choosing not to try to like him based on an existing negative impression of him? In other word, she has decided not to try to like him... because she doesn't like him in the first place...? Isn't this exactly the kind of error that her post warns against? [Edit: I retract this particular paragraph for making assumptions about Alicorn's motives that I can't verify.]

I wonder if the whole breakdown between the two could have been minimized if Alicorn (and Silas) had been applying the type of strategies she mentions in the post from the start. She did mention avoiding the fundamental attribution error (emphasis mine):

When the person exhibits a characteristic, habit, or tendency you have on your list (or, probably just to aggravate you, turns out to have a new one), be on your guard immediately for the fundamental attribution error. It is especially insidious when you already dislike the person, and so it's important to compensate consciously and directly for its influence. Elevate to conscious thought an "attribution story", in which you consider a circumstance - not a character trait - which would explain this most recent example of bad behavior.

In this case, there actually is a relevant circumstance (which I attempt to recount ): Alicorn was kind of a jerk to him in both intellectual and personal ways without any retraction or apology. He followed her around being increasingly sarcastic, and she wrote him off as a jerk, resulting in him becoming even more abrasive. [Edit: This is my perception as an observer with (a) significant agreement with Silas on substantive issues, (b) significant disagreement with Silas' communication style, and (c) significant disagreement with Alicorn on certain issues.]

Alicorn doesn't seem to have acknowledged the circumstance in which Silas was being abrasive and sarcastic towards her. People recently seeing their exchanges won't know the circumstance, either. As a result, his comments may read as more hostile to them, when to me many of them read like frustration at being treated unfairly by someone and then being made into the bad guy when attempting to seek redress with them. Yes, many of his comments sound flat-out hostile to me, too (and I've told Silas in the past to tone it down), but these mainly started appearing after communication between the two of them had broken down, which seems a lot due to communication errors on Alicorn's end, also.

When judging how much of a jerk someone is and deciding whether it's worth trying to like them, it's probably an example of the fundamental attribution error to judge them a jerk for being consistently sarcastic to you after you were a jerk to them and didn't apologize. Alicorn's assessment of Silas seems, to a large degree, a self-fulfilling prophecy (which also implies that there is a degree to which Silas' sarcasm level isn't justified by the way Alicorn treated him... though I do have sympathy for him for reasons I explain below).

Now, normally, I wouldn't feel motivated to point a contradiction I perceived between a top-level post, and the behavior of a poster. I tend to treat people's arguments in isolation. However, I'm not in Silas' shoes. I know that I would feel frustrated and helpless if I was treated unfairly by a higher status member of a community, and then notice that person receiving acclaim from the community for advocating virtues that seemed absent in their treatment of me. I would start to feel a bit bullied if, when I had tried to point out the contradiction at various points and seek some updating from the high status person, members of the community sided with the high status person, rather than with me. I hope I would be able to just get over it, or communicate my frustration in a constructive way that put people on my side.

I have a decent level of social support, so I can handle someone giving me poor advice that is ignorant of my experience. I can handle people telling me something like what Alicorn told Silas (see my first link): that my female friends must not like me very much because they aren't introducing me to more women. I could even handle someone saying: "If you'd like to add a less polite data point, I'd neither date you nor introduce you to my single friends based on what little I know of you" (Alicorn's words to Silas, which were not justified by anything he had said at that point).

To me, I can shrug these things off; they aren't a big deal... because I have social support. But it's important to realize that to someone who has a below average level of social support, such presumptions are a big deal. People, including me, kept telling Silas to "get over" his issues with Alicorn, but perhaps what she said might have been disproportionately hurtful or angering to him than it would have been to any of us, and consequently harder to just "get over." Silas still should have followed our advice, but our judgments of him based on the fact that he didn't must take this potential background into account.

For people with lower social support, being asked to "get over it" can trigger past issues of bullying: being bullied by a more popular bully and then being told that it isn't a big deal, and people judging you as more uncool for making a big deal about it than they judge the bully uncool for originally mistreating you. I am not saying that Alicorn was bullying Silas (though she may owe him some sort of apology or retraction), only presenting a hypothesis that her treatment of him, and our insistence that he "get over it" without any kind of apology or retraction from her, could well trigger a less-than-graceful response from someone with lower than average social support who have suffered interpersonal maltreatment in the past. If Silas belongs to such a class of people, it would explain a lot of the sarcasm and abrasiveness he has been flinging around towards people.

The ability to "just get over" people being a jerk to you and devaluing your social desirability is a privilege of people with social support. Since many of the people here might experience lower-than-average levels of social support, it's a bad precedent on LessWrong if the norms allow someone to be a jerk to someone with a low level of social support, and then write the victim off as a jerk because they get mad and don't respond as gracefully as someone with high social support would. It's also a bad norm to allow poster A to be a jerk to poster B, and then accept that poster A can demand that poster B stop replying to them after poster B acts like a jerk in return.

For various reasons, Alicorn herself may not have realized that Silas felt maligned in that original discussion, or that she owed him an apology/retracion, and perhaps thought the updating she showed towards my explanation of where he was coming from was enough (again, see the first post I link to). As a result, she might have been mystified by why he was consistently being sarcastic to her, and imputed his behavior as a negative reflection of his character, such that he wasn't worth communicating with or even trying to like. [Edit: Although these potential explanations of Alicorn's thought processes are charitable, I acknowledge them as speculation.] This would be an example of the fundamental attribution error, even though it might have been an unknowing one.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 03:34:45PM *  0 points [-]

here would be a perfectly suitable place to bring up failures of her advice, if such failures actually existed.

Please reconcile your obvious advice with jimrandomh's equally-obvious but opposite advice given here. Specifically, on the issue of whether I should have made a comment in this discussion that implicitly requests a response from Alicorn.

Moderators: please withdraw your upvotes from the parent until you can come up with a course of action that would have satisfied both kodos96 and jimrandomh's constraints; otherwise, you're venturing deep into politicsland.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 03:55:22AM *  -1 points [-]

Actually, there's one more important thing I should add: I have conclusive evidence that Alicorn has much to gain from getting over this dislike, by her very own standards. I can prove this by showing that she enjoys my posting, and wishes to reply to -- and even provoke -- my posting, just so long as she knows it's not me. That shows a critical failure to apply her advice when could actually do some good, or at least a failure to recognize a set of heuristics that correctly indicate when the advice should be used.

So why is Alicorn's advice particularly insightful on this subject?

Comment author: JanetK 26 May 2010 11:37:24AM *  14 points [-]

I do not know you and I do not know Alicorn. I do not know who I would have the most sympathy for if I did know both of you. I find this whole discussion off topic. Alicorn gave some advice and I find the advice interesting whether she follows it or not, whether she even believes it or not.

It is very good advice (if and only if you may want from time to time to like someone that you have come to dislike). I personally have tried to develop ways to not start to dislike people in the first place and not worry about whether liking them is to my advantage. However, it has not always been the case that I could like someone and it was sometimes to my disadvantage - so I appreciate the advice.

I suggest that you judge the advice and not the person who gave it. The 'others of us' are not interested in this fight.

Comment author: loqi 26 May 2010 07:32:19AM 29 points [-]

One possible reason Alicorn hasn't applied her technique to you is that it simply isn't powerful enough to overcome your unpleasantness. FWIW, I perceive you as a lot less civil than the LW norm, you seem possessed of a snarky combativeness. You also appear to have a tendency of fixating on personal annoyances and justifying your focus with concerns and observations that pop out of nowhere, context-wise.

In this case, your supposed insight into what would really be best for Alicorn plays that role. And then, having established this "lemma", you carry through to the conclusion that... Alicorn's behavior is inconsistent. Take a step back, and look at what you're saying. You're basically claiming to have reverse-engineered someone else's utility function, as the premise of an argument which concludes that they're being a hypocrite.

I hope you'll come to see this sort of behavior as embarrassing.

Comment author: aceofspades 23 April 2012 05:38:11PM 0 points [-]

"FWIW" == "For What It's Worth," to save a few person-minutes for other passive readers here.

Comment author: Tyrrell_McAllister 26 May 2010 04:10:24AM *  5 points [-]

So why is Alicorn's advice particularly insightful on this subject?

Again, because she's not giving advice on knowing when you ought to like someone. She's giving advice on what to do after you have decided that you ought to like someone, even though you don't like them automatically.