Blueberry comments on On Enjoying Disagreeable Company - Less Wrong

49 Post author: Alicorn 26 May 2010 01:47AM

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Comment author: jimrandomh 26 May 2010 05:16:02AM *  22 points [-]

EDIT: I've reconsidered this, and what I wrote here is unfair to SilasBarta. What really happened here, I think, is that Alicorn's actions inadvertantly set up a feedback loop, which no one understood well enough to shut down before it blew up here. In this post, I chided Silas for not recognizing and disarming that feedback loop - but the truth is, there were plenty of people, including both Alicorn and myself, who could've repaired the situation with a little more awareness, and this comment really didn't help.

And to clarify - what started this whole thing was Alicorn asking Silas not to respond to any of her comments, which was a strange and hostile thing to ask. In this comment, I interpreted that request by rounding it to the nearest non-strange request, which more than I thought. Unfortunately, when asked to clarify, Alicorn clarified it as literally "don't reply to comments", rather than "don't try to initiate conversations", as she should have.

Original comment below:

Ok, this has gotten painful to watch, and since no one has explained it properly, I feel I ought to overcome the bystander effect and step in. SilasBarta, you have dramatically misunderstood what is happening here. You are flagrantly violating a social norm that you do not seem to understand. Alicorn has acted in a way that is fully determined by your behavior towards her, and anyone else would do the same in her place.

When you speak someone's name and know that they can hear you, you are, in effect, attempting to summon them. It effectively forces them to listen; if in public, they may need to step in to defend their reputation, and if in private they know they're specifically being addressed. Attempts to initiate conversation are a social primitive; neurotypicals track a statistical overview of the nature, frequency, and response given to conversations with each person, and expect each other to do the same.

If you attempt to initiate conversation with someone, they give you a negative response, and you knew or should have known that they would give you a negative response, then you are pestering them. By "negative response", I mean visible irritation, anger, or an attempt to push you out of their sphere of attention without using a pretext. If you repeatedly pester someone who has specifically asked you not to, and you don't have a sufficiently suitable and important pretext, then you are harrassing them. Pestering someone is frowned upon. Harrassing someone is frowned upon, and can also be illegal if it either carries an implied threat or is sufficiently flagrant. Also, our culture assigns additional penalty points for this if you are male and the person you're harrassing is female.

So here is the story, as I understand it. After an interaction that did not go well, Alicorn asked you not to reply to her comments. This means "don't pester me" (or more succinctly, "go away"). This is one of a small number of standard messages which all neurotypicals expect each other to be able to recognize reliably and to pick out of subtext. You continued to participate in conversations Alicorn was involved in, by responding to other commenters, but every time you did so you spoke Alicorn's name, even when you had no pretext for doing so. You interpreted her request in a literal-minded but incorrect way; you failed to generalize from "don't respond to my comments" to "don't try to pull me into a conversation with you by any means".

Comment author: Blueberry 26 May 2010 05:48:49AM 6 points [-]

After an interaction that did not go well, Alicorn asked you not to reply to her comments. This means "don't pester me" (or more succinctly, "go away"). This is one of a small number of standard messages which all neurotypicals expect each other to be able to recognize reliably and to pick out of subtext.

Ok, that's ridiculous. Comments on LW are part of a large group discussion. A person can tell someone else to stop bugging them or emailing them or calling them, but it is not reasonable to ask someone to not make public comments on LW. No one has the right to do that, any more than I have the right to say "stop using the Internet; it bugs me."

Comment author: jimrandomh 26 May 2010 06:12:23AM -1 points [-]

A person can tell someone else to stop bugging them or emailing them or calling them, but it is not reasonable to ask someone to not make public comments on LW.

True, but that's not the request that was made. She asked him to stop making comments which specifically single her out.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 03:10:27PM 4 points [-]

Sorry, jimrandomh, but you are flatly wrong here, and this misunderstanding underpins your entire criticism. Alicorn has asked that I not post any comments as a reply to hers, even if they don't single her out, and even if they involve asking others not to mod her down because of the context of her comment! See here, and here.

Now, please revise your diplomatic comments in light of this new information.

(The funniest part is how Alicorn keeps appealing to her own non-neurotypicality, despite my being the only one accused of missing something due to non-NT. Go fig.)

Comment author: jimrandomh 26 May 2010 07:13:28PM 1 point [-]

The most accurate phrasing of the intended meaning of Alicorn's request is the one I wrote in my first post: "do not try to pull me into a conversation with you by any means". A direct reply does that; it singles out the author of the parent, to a degree that depends on how easily someone else could step in and take their place in the conversation. Non-reply comments also do that if they name her; she didn't explicitly say that wasn't allowed, but "leave me the fuck alone" should've covered it.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 07:23:34PM *  1 point [-]

The most accurate phrasing of the intended meaning of Alicorn's request is the one I wrote in my first post: "do not try to pull me into a conversation with you by any means".

Except that I stated what I took the request to mean, and she agreed with that. And "do no try to pull me into a conversation ..." just ain't part of it. Take, for example, this comment and this one. Off limits? Well, Alicorn certainly reserves the right to make such comments on my top-level posts. And it doesn't obligate her to respond directly.

So you still appear very confused about the topic you're opining on so strongly and confidently.

A direct reply does that;

Not even close: see here, another major example of Alicorn saying what is and is not okay. The comment I made, though nested under her comment, does not in any way draw her into a conversation, because it is a remark about someone else. It is not addressed to her, but to the group in general, regarding a different poster. Still off limits, for some reason.

Is it starting to dawn on you how you've misinterpreted Alicorn's past demands, and why you should maybe withdraw your misconception -rounded, "noble" criticism of me from earlier?

Comment author: RobinZ 26 May 2010 08:17:31PM 2 points [-]

A direct reply does that;

Not even close: see here, another major example of Alicorn saying what is and is not okay. The comment I made, though nested under her comment, does not in any way draw her into a conversation, because it is a remark about someone else. It is not addressed to her, but to the group in general, regarding a different poster. Still off limits, for some reason.

I see two problems with your selected case.

First, you appeared to violate the stated version of the rule. You need a better reason just to create that appearance than wanting to make a jocular remark.

Second, jocular remarks are drawing people into conversations - they're probably the number-one way to draw someone into a conversation. People joke around with people that they like, and Alicorn does not like you.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 08:32:20PM *  2 points [-]

I had no idea the concept of "jocular" even applied at the time (and remember, the aspie defense can only be used by Alicorn, not me!) I still don't see how such a remark somehow draws Alicorn to post further (maybe in real life, in-person situations that might be true?).

Does anyone really see why that general, light-hearted jab at Mitchell somehow gives Alicorn a social obligation to continue?

As for violating the stated rule, my (quite reasonable) understanding at the time (though not anymore) was that the mere nesting of the comment doesn't matter; what matters is who it's directed at. And from context, it's clear it's a general, big-picture remark bout Mitchell's theory's inadequacy. (And a bit of a rude one, but not to Alicorn.)

So it's far from obvious I was doing anything wrong at the time -- but apparently, even defending Alicorn for saying "leave me the fuck alone" is blatant disregard for her -- go fig!

Comment author: RobinZ 26 May 2010 09:04:25PM *  10 points [-]

Your defense of Alicorn is at +1. Your original remark is at -6. This is because the former comment was appropriate, and the latter not.

Edit 5/27: I have been reminded that the primary reason given for downvoting the original comment was that it was rude, not that it was a reply to Alicorn - I had forgotten this, and left a misleading impression as a consequence.

I hope you know this already, but your social coprocessor is crap, dude. You really need to put in some hard work developing a better set of heuristics, because you've been making a lot of blunders, and it's turning people off.

Comment author: SilasBarta 26 May 2010 09:14:47PM *  -1 points [-]

Your defense of Alicorn is at +1. Your original remark is at -6. This is because the former comment was appropriate, and the latter not.

The defense of Alicorn was at 0 earlier today, and long ago it went negative very quickly. It has nothing to do with appropriateness and everything to do with Alicorn wanting to impose unreasonable rules on me out of some misguided spite.

I hope you know this already, but your social coprocessor is crap, dude.

Thanks -- I'm glad that won't work as a self-fulfilling prophesy or anything, and it's not the kind of thing you could have said privately -- very thoughtful of you.

You really need to put in some hard work developing a better set of heuristics, because you've been making a lot of blunders, and it's turning people off.

Well, I'm glad to know that on a site like LW, I will be given more patience because of the understanding of non-neurotypicality, so long as you use Alicorn rather than SilasBarta as your handle.