Blueberry comments on Open Thread: June 2010 - Less Wrong

5 Post author: Morendil 01 June 2010 06:04PM

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Comment author: Blueberry 05 June 2010 10:14:15PM *  0 points [-]

But the fact of the matter would be that such a zombie would be objectively wrong in its claim to be conscious.

Well, the claim would be objectively incorrect; I'm not sure it's meaningful to say that the zombie would be wrong.

My question is: what is being conscious defined to mean? If it's a property that is objectively present or not present and that you can be wrong about in this way, then it must be something more than a "pure subjective" experience or quale.

As others have commented, it's having the capacity to model oneself and one's perceptions of the world. If p-zombies are impossible, which they are, there are no "pure subjective" experiences: any entity's subjective experience corresponds to some objective feature of its brain or programming.

Comment author: DanArmak 06 June 2010 12:25:50AM 2 points [-]

it's having the capacity to model oneself and one's perceptions of the world.

That's not the definition that seems to be used in many of the discussions about consciousness. For instance, the term "Hard Problem of Consciousness" isn't talking about self-modeling.

Let's take the discussion about p-zombies as an example. P-zombies are physically identical to normal humans, so they (that is, their brains) clearly model themselves and their own perceptions of the world. Then the claim that they are unconscious is in direct contradiction to the definition of consciousness.

If proving that p-zombies are logically impossible was as simple as pointing this out, the whole debate wouldn't exist.

Beyond that example, I've gone through all LW posts that have "conscious" in their title:

I'm saying that "But you haven't explained consciousness!" doesn't reasonably seem like the responsibility of physicists, or an objection to a theory of fundamental physics.

And then he says:

however consciousness turns out to work, getting infected with virus X97 eventually causes your experience of dripping green slime.

I read that as using 'consciousness' to mean experience in the sense of subjective qualia.

If p-zombies are impossible, which they are, there are no "pure subjective" experiences: any entity's subjective experience corresponds to some objective feature of its brain or programming.

The reason "subjective experience" is called subjective is that it's presumed not to be part of the objective, material world. That definition is dated now, of course.

I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion of what consciousness is, or what subjective experience is. That's a discussion I'd be very interested in, but it should be separate. My original question was, what do people mean by "consciousness"? If I understood you correctly, that to you it simply means self-modeling systems, then I was right to think different people use the C-word to mean quite different things, even just here on LW.

Comment author: RomanDavis 06 June 2010 01:22:12AM 0 points [-]

Lets say you're having a subjective experience. Say, being stung by a wasp. How do you know? Right. You have to have to be a ware of yourself, and your skin, and have pain receptors, and blah blah blah.

But if you couldn't feel the pain, let's say because you were numb, you would still feel conscious. And if you were infected with a virus that made a wasp sting feel sugary and purple, rather than itchy and painful, you would also still be conscious.

It's only when you don't have a model of yourself that consciousness becomes impossible.

Comment author: DanArmak 07 June 2010 02:40:32PM 0 points [-]

It's only when you don't have a model of yourself that consciousness becomes impossible.

That doesn't mean they're the same thing. Unless you define them to mean the same thing. But as I described above, not everyone does that. There is no "Hard Problem of Modeling Yourself".