jimrandomh comments on What should I have for dinner? (A case study in decision making) - Less Wrong

23 Post author: bentarm 12 August 2010 01:29PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (106)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: ObliqueFault 12 August 2010 05:54:47PM *  -2 points [-]

From the New York Times article:

On the one hand, we've been told with almost religious certainty by everyone from the surgeon general on down, and we have come to believe with almost religious certainty, that obesity is caused by the excessive consumption of fat, and that if we eat less fat we will lose weight and live longer.

Either Taubes is throwing out a straw man here, or his opponents are ridiculously simplistic. It's pretty well established that some fat can be good for you, and length of life is based on a whole ton of factors.

The problem with nutritional science is that you don't need any sort of expertise to get a platform, you just need strong opinions. See both Taubes and his opponents. Those kinds are always trying to scare you into buying their latest book by simplistically dividing food into "good" and "bad" types, and insisting you'll die if you keep eating the bad ones. Not to mention lose weight if you eat the good ones.

Weight management boils down to simple physics, namely the First Law of thermodynamics. If you consume less energy while spending more (via exercise mainly), you'll lose weight. One calorie is completely interchangeable with another calorie, it doesn't matter where it came from. (The exception being that it's easier to add muscle mass by eating proteins.)

The hard part about losing weight isn't knowing what to eat, it's having the willpower to eat less (or exercise more). Of course, you can't sell a book by telling everyone "we're fat because we have no willpower". "We're fat because we've been lied to", however, will sell.

(EDIT: I'm going to add some clarifications on my position here because the feedback shows that I've made my position seem more extreme than I intended.

First, I shouldn't have said it was simple, it's not.

If you eat just until you're full and you get moderate exercise but you're still overweight, you should talk to your doctor. You may still need to change your eating or exercising habits, but you should do research first, and not make any sweeping changes all at once. And you should never have to be constantly hungry, or end up having to eat almost nothing. Both outcomes are extremely unhealthy.

Changing your habits is always difficult, and that's where the willpower comes in. It should only be needed until you settle into your new habits, though.

I'm not trying to compare the metabolisms of separate people. Some people can eat a lot more than others and maintain a healthy weight.

I'm not trying to say you can cut food willy-nilly and still be healthy. I'm not trying to use energy balance as a curiosity stopper. I'm trying to use it to combat claims that you can eat as much "good" food as you want as long as you avoid "bad" food.)

Comment author: jimrandomh 12 August 2010 06:09:24PM 5 points [-]

The hard part about losing weight isn't knowing what to eat, it's having the willpower to eat less (or exercise more).

No, this is wrong. If you have to use willpower to suppress your appetite, then either one of your appetite-regulation mechanisms is malfunctioning, or your appetite-regulation mechanisms are working correctly but you're deficient in a vital nutrient. Telling people to use willpower to eat less is harmful in both cases - in the former case, because it stops them for looking for the real cause of their overeating (usually sugar), and in the latter case by making them starve themselves (usually of protein).

Comment author: ObliqueFault 12 August 2010 07:00:12PM *  1 point [-]

I agree with everything you said until you mentioned that sugar is the real cause of people overeating. There are a lot of possible reasons for someone to overeat, and none of them, in my opinion, are solely dietary. The cause may be psychological - for example, a lot of people eat when they're depressed or bored. I myself sometimes succumb to the latter. Some people hate to exercise. Willpower will help in all of those cases.

The only case I can think of where sugar might be considered the culprit is if someone drinks way too many sodas, for example. But the problem isn't the fact that it's sugar in the soda, it's that the person is consuming a lot of extra calories they wouldn't otherwise get. They'd be just as overweight as if they ate a calorically equivalent amount of potato chips. They need the willpower to stop their soda habit.

Regarding nutrient deficiencies, I've only been talking about calories, not other types of nutrients. I apologize for not making this clear in my first post. Obviously, if you need more vitamin C, you're better off drinking some orange juice than a calorically equivalent amount of soda. You should always have a varied diet that contains enough essential vitamins, minerals, and amino acids.

Comment author: jimrandomh 12 August 2010 07:42:29PM 2 points [-]

The bit about sugar being a cause for misregulation of appetite was a parenthetical remark, which the rest of the comment does not depend on. That said, I think you're drastically underestimating the amount of harm sugar does. Blood sugar is one of the main mechanisms for regulating appetite, and drinking soda completely destroys its functionality.

Regarding nutrient deficiencies, I wasn't just talking about micronutrients like vitamin C, but also to macronutrients. For example, if someone's problem is that they aren't eating any fat, then no amount of low-fat food will ever suffice to make them feel full.

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 13 August 2010 09:33:05PM 0 points [-]

It's definitely true that some amount of dietary fat and protein should be considered nearly essential (but a typical fast food diet will far exceed all those minimums). I think the same is also true of carbs but almost nobody fails to get enough sugar.