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Blueberry comments on How to always have interesting conversations - Less Wrong
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Not everyone will agree with me on this, and I know this is controversial. But I have the firm belief that no one becomes good at conversation, dating, or any social skill without the equivalent of "creeping out 20[0] people in a row": it's just that most people make most of their big social mistakes when they're very young (just like most people's middle or high school experiments with romance or sex end up being total disasters). If you're not willing to creep out 200 or so people in a row, you'll never learn.
The "avoid captive situations" comment is not particularly helpful for someone trying to learn social skills. In fact, I'd say it's harmful, because the concern about making people feel uncomfortable is a big part of social anxiety, and social anxiety is what prevents people from developing social skills.
Okay, who were your first 200? Please list 50 of the incidents when the venue supervisor asked you to leave or modify your behavior.
Why are you asking that? I'm missing your point.
Not wishing to speak for Silas, but it looks to me like this. You believe that:
If you believe that you are not good at conversation, then you are speculating without practical experience. If you believe you are good at conversation, then by your account you must have gone through your 200 people. Silas is challenging you to share your experience of doing so -- I presume as a check on whether you really believe it, or merely believe that you believe it.
Creeping out 200 people in a row is like suggesting you can't learn to ride a bicycle without breaking a few bones. It's way excessive. Even creeping out 20 people in a row (Silas' figure, which you chose to amend upwards, which argues against this being idle hyperbole) is an absurdity. By the time you're creeping someone out, you're already way off course.
You're correct that if you go up to a random person 200 times and start talking, you will probably not creep out all 200. I was exaggerating, which is why I said "the equivalent of" creeping 200 people out: my point was that everyone needs to make lots of awkward mistakes to learn social skills, and that you need to be willing to do so. Silas stated that this wasn't an acceptable risk, and I amended his figure upward to indicate that you have to be willing to deal with even worse outcomes than he was fearing, even if they're unlikely to occur, and that learning conversational skills can be difficult and involve a lot of rejection.
I'm not going to list all my mistakes, but I have certainly made more than 200 awkward comments to people, experienced more than 200 rejections, made people feel uncomfortable more than 200 times, and so forth (though not in a row, admittedly). It doesn't make you "way off course"; it's the only way to learn.
It looks like we're referring to different things by the term "[equivalent of] creeping people out". I agree you will have to make mistakes and get rejections. But I was referring to a specific context for the "creeping out".
Specifically, the problem at hand was that of how to get good at starting conversations with random strangers. The strategy being recommended was one that dismissed the downside of creeping out random strangers (which is often associated with the venue supervisor -- boss, proprietor, conductor, bouncer, whatever -- telling you to stop or leave).
My comment was that, no, doing things that disruptive and creepy, that often, in that short of a period, is not an acceptable risk, and not what you should suggest anyone should do if that's the risk.
(And RichardKennaway confirmed that enduring that kind of social ostracism is way excessive for the skill being learned, so I'm not alone in this assessment.)
You, in turn, were taking "creeping out" to refer to relatively minor goofs in a context where the consequences are much less severe, where you've already done significant deft social navigation around that group, and where those who see the error have good reason to be much more understanding of the goof. While I agree that rejections, mistakes, etc. are to be expected and are part of life, you were equating very different kinds of rejections, and -- like most sociality advisors here -- assuming away the problem of having passed a certain social barrier.
In any case, those are far different kinds of failures than "becoming the creepy guy at the bookstore" or having people get the bouncer to talk to you because of conversational goofs (which has happened to me, so this isn't idle speculation). You have an inaccurate picture of what you were expecting me to go through, so your advice, though relevant for other social skills, was not applicable here, and comes across as -- like Richard noted -- shrugging off the possibility of breaking bones to learn how to ride a bike, as if it's no big deal.
Am I starting to make sense here?
And who modded this down? I'm sorry the comment I made which Richard elaborated on was too brief to make my point, but why shouldn't I have made that comment? Should I not have confirmed that Richard was correctly representing my objection?
I don't care about the loss of karma here, but I want to know why someone deems it "a type of comment I want less of". I get that if I were merely agreeing, it was a waste of space, but since I was the one making the original comment, my agreement and confirmation is informative to the discussion.
I'm not dismissing it. I'm saying that may be the price that you have to pay in order to develop these skills. If you're not willing to pay it, I think it would be very difficult to learn (though there are ways of reducing the risk: CronoDAS suggests looking for eye contact first, which might help).
If you know what these disruptive creepy things are, just don't do them. If you don't know what they are (and how to identify them on the fly), you need to learn, and that may involve making big mistakes. How else will you learn? If you don't think it's an acceptable risk, fine, but I think developing the skills is worth the risk. If you routinely, inadvertently, creep people out during social interactions, you have two options: avoid people forever and become a hermit, or practice talking to people and learn how to fix the problem, and it's better to practice on strangers you never have to see again.
I don't think I am assuming away the problem, and I think I do understand what you mean. It may be tougher for you than for most people, for a variety of reasons. In order to get past this barrier and develop social skills, I am recommending the specific strategy of going to different places (bookstores, coffeeshops, bars, parks, the grocery store) and starting up friendly conversations with lots of people. You can do this right now. I understand that you may get kicked out of these venues. I understand that everyone may think you're creepy. I understand that this type of rejection is painful. Do it anyway. If you get kicked out of one place, try another. How else are you going to get past this barrier?
I don't think you do understand. I live in a small town, in which there are few alternatives if I'm kicked out of one of them. And I think it's pretty easy for you to smugly shrug off this social ostracism as "just something we all have to go through" when, um, you didn't have to go through it, and don't understand why anyone would have to go through it.
This is not to say I'm looking for excuses to do nothing -- everything I've said in this thread is quite well-grounded.
- Nor to say that I haven't made serious efforts -- I've gotten involved in groups, which has gotten me experience, albeit not with random people.
- Nor to say that I lack opportunities to practice conversations -- just that I don't have an immense hoard of people to draw interaction experience from.
- Nor to say that I'm completely clueless -- just that the random approach thing doesn't come easily, and is a critical pre-requisite for the other advice.
- Nor to say that no one can provide helpful advice -- but some certainly can't.
It's inevitable that I'll have to use advice that doesn't assume away the problem, for one thing.
When someone starts saying there are only two options, that throws up a red flag for me. There are rarely just two options. A third option would be to listen to people who went through the mental transition I want to go through, or have studied this topic carefully, such as (to various degrees) CronoDAS, Roko, and HughRistik.
I'm proud of you for having most of these social skills naturally, and that for you, improvement mainly consists of going from great to supergreat. Really, I am. But maybe your perspective isn't the appropriate one here?
(Edited to tone down.)
For another it requires directing resources into solving the problem rather than justifying why your circumstances give you claim to victim status.
Didn't I read this same conversation a year ago? Or was that someone else with the same script?
In the past year or two:
I've joined a large organization that wouldn't otherwise interest me, gotten involved in several of its subgroups and events, and practices conversation in those contexts. I've taken Juggler's course and his subordinate's. I've brought a date to company event to increase my apparent attractiveness. I've gone to four weddings. I've gone out with two women from the above group.
I've read books and web resources about sociality. I've been complimented on my ability to make group newcomers feel welcome. I've gotten to the point where I can comfortably say hi strangers. I've gone to two costume parties and talked with many of the people there. I've consulted with real meatspace people in the above group about my sociality problems and what to do. I've joined up with a political group, organized some of its events, and briefly led it.
I disagree that that's a fair characterization of me.
Yeah, that would make things rough. If it's at all feasible, I would look into moving to a large city, but of course moving can be very difficult, especially if you're in a school program (I think you said you were in grad school).
Oh, I definitely went through, and still go through, a lot of ostracism and rejection. I did, and do, have to go through it. I don't think I'm at "great" by any means. And I don't have these skills naturally. First of all, I don't think anyone has them naturally, which was my point. Have you spent much time around kids or teenagers? Very few of them have any social skills at all; they're still making mistakes. But if you mean that you think I learned social skills quickly without trouble or pain, no, they're not easy for me either. I may not be able to provide helpful advice, because I don't know all the details of your brain and your experiences, but it's definitely not something I take for granted.
You're right, of course talking to people who know a lot about improving social skills will help. My point was that, if you inadvertently creep people out when you talk to them, then you have to risk it for right now as you go about conversations in your life, or else avoid people in general. In fact, I think that a large part of social and conversational skills is just not worrying or being afraid of people reacting negatively.
No, you're referring to relatively minor goofs in a context where the social consequences are much less severe, where you've already done significant deft social navigation around that group, and where those who see the error have good reason to be much more understanding of the goof. While I agree that rejections, mistakes, etc. are to be expected and are part of life, you are equating very different kinds of rejections, and -- like most sociality advisors here -- assuming away the problem of having passed a certain social barrier.
Those are far different kinds of failures than "becoming the creepy guy at the bookstore" or having people get the bouncer to talk to you because of conversational goofs (which has happened to me, so this isn't idle speculation).
To clarify: Have you been approched by a venue supervisor because of a conversational goof with a stranger or new acquaintance? If not, you're not going through the risks I'm referring to or speaking to the situation I'm in.
I'm not asking that the entire situation be pleasant; I'm asking that I can reasonably expect the failures not to cascade so that I can really go through a large enough number of interactions while actually learning. When you're ready to stop misinterpreting me otherwise, I will revise my opinion on the merit of your suggestions.
(And a suggestion for you: if you want to drop out and save some face, make a remark like, "Gosh, you're unpleasant. Now I know why you have so much trouble. You deserve it, and I hope you do everyone a service by staying away from them." I try to help people, even if they haven't been as kind in the past.)
Is there an improv group where you live?
A Toastmasters'?
No to the first, yes to the second, but I lost brain cells going to the first meeting.
I'm already involved in some groups, untasteful though I find them. The problem is not being in groups per se, but starting conversations with random people.
Could folks please stop giving advice on that unless there was a time when they had trouble with that, and know specifically what they did to overcome it?
There's the root of the problem. You can't develop socially if you're trapped at home. And make no mistake: if you can't reliably get to a city or public transit hub without calling in a favor, then you are very much trapped. A small town that you can't routinely leave is a toxic environment, and you need to escape it by any means necessary. Free housing is not a favor if it's in a location that destroys your life.
Wow, I didn't know small towns were "toxic environments" that were the death knell for social skills. Next time, mention that sooner.
Insert "can be a" ... "if it does not provide an acceptable social network" and I'll have to agree.
I don't know, but I put it back up to zero for exactly the reason you gave for considering it useful, and I did so before reading the comment I'm replying to.
Thank you, well said.