wedrifid comments on Open Thread June 2010, Part 4 - Less Wrong

5 Post author: Will_Newsome 19 June 2010 04:34AM

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Comment author: Morendil 30 June 2010 01:19:18PM 3 points [-]

OK, "reverence for authorities" might a red herring here. Please disregard that and accept a fractional apology; I think my observation still stands.

Robin's saying "the expected value of your reading (something like) a classic is higher than the expected value of equivalent time spent reading (something like) my blog".

He isn't saying "you need to read the classics (and nothing else will do)", in spite of what the title says. You sound as if you're reacting to the title only - and an idiosyncratic reading of it at that.

Your point regarding a specific article - Coase's - may have merit. Some issues you need to consider are:

  • Reading a primary source often allows you to understand how it has been misunderstood; there is a (ahem) classic example in the field of software engineering, where for years the article cited as the primary inspiration for the well-known "waterfall lifecycle" was Winston Royce 1970; it turns out, when you actually read the article, that it condemns the waterfall cycle as oversimplistic and unworkable - here we have a misunderstanding with a cost measured in billions and attributable to failure to read the classics carefully.
  • As a corollary, modern popularizations of a classic may contain distortions due to the popularizer's various other biases, including poor skill at explaining; just as much as they may enhance the value of the classic by providing a streamlined explanation; how are you to sort one from the other?
  • A distilled explanation of the insight from a classic strips it of all the anecdotes and background material which lent the insight force in the first place; that may be valuable and, depending on your purpose, even more valuable than reading the primary source, but it doesn't convey the same understanding; your grasp on why the insight has force may be shakier than if you'd read the primary source. There's often a trade-off between time spent acquiring an insight and depth of understanding. (Admittedly, this trade-off can be substantially modified by the time you spent exercising the insight.)

Another respondent on Robin's blog says "Pfui, blogs have led me to classics". Well, that point doesn't work if all you ever read are blogs, showing precisely how I suspect folks are misunderstanding Robin's point.

What Robin says is that there is a hierarchy of sources of knowledge, not all are worth the same, and it's unwise to spend all your time on secondary or tertiary (etc.) sources that (often) are lesser sources of intellectual nourishment. In short, there's a reason the classics are acknowledged as such.

Comment author: wedrifid 30 June 2010 01:27:41PM 1 point [-]

In short, there's a reason the classics are acknowledged as such.

It would astound me if this reason was that they were the optimal source of educational. That would completely shake my entire understanding of the fairness of the universe.

Better than the classics are the later sources that cover the same material once the culture has had a chance to fully process the insights and experiment with the best way to understand them. You pick the sources that become popular and respected despite not having the prestige of being the 'first one to get really popular in the area'. You want the best, not the 'first famous' and shouldn't expect that to be the same source. After all, the author of the Classic had to do all the hard work of thinking of the ideas in the first place... we can't expect him to also manage to perfect the expression of them and teach them in the most effective manner. Give the poor guy a break!

As an example,

Comment author: CronoDAS 30 June 2010 03:19:30PM 4 points [-]

As an example,

You seem to be missing the examples at the moment, but I'll give one... it's damn hard to learn relativity by reading Einstein's original papers. Your average undergraduate textbook gives a much better explanation of special relativity.

On the other hand, when it comes to studying history, sometimes classics are still the best sources. For example, when it comes to the Peloponnesian War, everything written by anyone other than Thucydides is merely footnotes.

Comment author: Morendil 30 June 2010 02:14:12PM 4 points [-]

Better than the classics are the later sources

Reading Dawkins may be more effective than reading Darwin, to appreciate descent with modification and differential survival as an optimization algorithm.

Reading Darwin may be more effective than reading Dawkins, to appreciate what intellectual work went into following contemporary evidence to that conclusion, in the face of a world filled with bias and confusion.

Reading Dawkins OR Darwin is - and I think that is Robin's point - more valuable than the same time spent reading blogs expounding shaky speculations on evolution.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 30 June 2010 08:05:12PM 1 point [-]

I'm underlining your point about Darwin-- just getting the insights doesn't give you information about the process of thinking them out.

Also, a "just the insights" version will probably leave out any caveats the originator of the insights included.

Comment author: Morendil 30 June 2010 08:48:55PM 1 point [-]

a "just the insights" version will probably leave out any caveats

Spectacularly so in the case of the Waterfall software development process. It's as if the "classic" in question had said "Drowning kittens" at the end of page 1, and of course the beginning of page 2 goes right on to say "...is evil, don't do it". But everyone reads page one which has a lovely diagram and goes, "Oh yeah; drowning kittens. Wonderful idea, let's make that the official government norm for feline management."

Comment author: wedrifid 30 June 2010 03:00:11PM 1 point [-]

Reading Dawkins OR Darwin is - and I think that is Robin's point - more valuable than the same time spent reading blogs expounding shaky speculations on evolution.

100% agree that is Robin's point and another 100% with Robin's point. Hmm. Wrong place to throw 100% around. Let's see... 99.5% and 83% respectively. Akrasia considerations and the intrinsic benefits of the social experience of engaging with a near-in-time social network account for the other 17%.