RobinZ comments on Open Thread June 2010, Part 4 - Less Wrong

5 Post author: Will_Newsome 19 June 2010 04:34AM

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Comment author: SilasBarta 30 June 2010 06:17:34PM *  1 point [-]

You'd need to spell out more precisely what [Gene Callahan]'s doing that you think deserves criticism.

Exactly what I referred to in the previous paragraph.

it's [up to] those who are aware of the classics' insights to understand and present them where applicable.

Callahan is, supposedly, aware of these classics' insights. Did he present them where applicable? Show evidence he understands them? No. Every time he drops the name of a great author or a classic, he fails to put the argument in his own words, sketch it out, or show its applicability to the arguments under discussion.

For example, he drops the remark that "Polanyi showed that crystallography is an a priori science [in the sense that Austrian economics is]" as if it were conclusively settled. Then, when I explain why this can't possibly be the case, Callahan is unable to provide any further elaboration of why that is (and I couldn't find a reference to it anywhere).

The problem, I contend, is therefore on his end. To the extent that Callahan's list of classics is relevant, and that he is a majestic bearer of this deep, hard-won knowledge, he is unable to actually show how the classics are relevant, and what amazing arguments are presented in them that obviate our discussion. The duty falls on him to make them relevant, not for everyone else to just go out and read everything he has, just because he thinks, in all his gullible wisdom, that it will totally convince us.

Note: I wasn't alone in noticing Callahan's refusal to engage. Another poster remarked:

Gene, The problems with appeals to authority are, 1) as you point out, not everyone may be familiar with the work of the authority, 2) the ‘authority’ may actually not be one (see Silas’ comments on crystallography), and 3) it’s a substitute for actually making an argument. It’s easy, and pointless, to simply say ‘other people have shown you’re wrong’. But if you present an argument then we can discuss it’s merits and flaws. ...

See, that’s how discussion works. If you have a position, just explain it! Then we can talk about it.


With regard to the books you mention: what little I have read about them, they aren't impressive or promising. For example, Feyerabend seems to think he has some great insight that good scientific theories don't have to incorporate the old theory, but rather, the normally make progress by ignoring the old. But he's attacking a strawman: new theories aren't expected to incorporate the old theory, just to be able to make the same predictions. [EDIT: Sorry, original version didn't have the complete sentence.]

Also, people like to make a big deal about how clever Quine's holism argument is, but if you're at all familiar with Bayesianism, you roll your eyes at it. Yes, theories can't be tested in isolation, but Bayesian inference can tell you which beliefs are most strongly weakened by which evidence, showing that you have a basis for saying which theory was, in effect, tested by the observations.

Things like these make me skeptical of those who claim that these philosophers have something worthwhile to say to me about science. I would rather focus on reading the epistemology of those who are actually making real, unfakeable, un-groupthinkable progress, like Sebastian Thrun and Judea Pearl.

Comment author: RobinZ 02 July 2010 12:13:33PM 1 point [-]

I think Lakatos, Proofs and Refutations is a fun book, but the chief thing I learned from it is that mathematical proofs aren't absolutely true, even when there is no error in reasoning. It's about mathematics, not science. It's also quite short, particularly if you skip the second, much more mathematically-involved dialogue.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 02 July 2010 01:20:17PM 1 point [-]

I learned the opposite: that mathematical proofs can be and should be absolutely true. When they fall short, it is a sign that some confusion still remains in the concepts.

Comment author: RobinZ 02 July 2010 01:36:37PM 0 points [-]

I see no contradiction between these interpretations. :P

Comment author: RichardKennaway 02 July 2010 01:49:30PM 2 points [-]

If they're never absolutely true (your interpretation), how can they ever be absolutely true (my interpretation)?

Comment author: RobinZ 02 July 2010 03:55:43PM 0 points [-]

I said mathematical proofs aren't absolute because mathematical proofs and refutations are subject to philosophical, linguistic debate - argument about whether the proof fits the concept being played with, argument which can result in (for example) proof-constructed definitions. During this process, one might say that the original proof or refutation is correct, but no longer appropriate, or that the original proof is incorrect. Neither statement implies different behavior.