= 27d567bc2d48d9f40e9ccc20ea370b15)
NancyLebovitz comments on A Rational Education - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
= 783df68a0f980790206b9ea87794c5b6)
Loading…= b715d02e85f7b3b4ae65ca3d3e450868)
Subscribe to RSS Feed
Powered by Reddit
= f037147d6e6c911a85753b9abdedda8d)
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (149)
If men work very hard to keep women out of male roles (which seems to be the case), and women don't work especially hard to keep men out of female roles (which also seems to be the case), what do you think is going on?
A hypothesis: Men are more aggressive than women, and more apt to defend territory. This doesn't prove anything about which territory is more valuable.
For many people, their gender is an incredibly important aspect of their identity. One can think of a given subculture as having an ideal performance of masculinity. Men and women both respect that ideal. Certain occupations have been traditionally seen as very good ways of achieving that ideal. If women enter into such an occupation, the occupation is no longer seen as validating mens' manly virtues.
I oppose sex-discrimination in hiring, but there is no denying that this is a very serious loss for some men. Eventually, norms and ideals evolve in a way which allows men to continue to have their masculinity validated, and/or de-emphasizes gender as a component of one's identity, but this is a slow process. Moreover, with any change in values, there will always be winners and losers.
I think that's part of what's going on, but (if it matters), do you think people just happen to have gender performance as a major part of their identity, or are they trained into it?
Both, I'd guess. While there is a lot of socialization around gender performance, there also seem to be biological factors the predispose people towards gender performance. To the extent that biological factors influence gender expression, I'm not even sure it is correct to say that gender is "socially constructed," at least not entirely.
For one example, look at the experience of some trans people as experiencing a strong gender identity as long as they remember (just one at odds with their socially assigned gender). I doubt that all of those feelings can be explained by social factors.
It seems to be common for boys to feel that they have to earn the right to consider themselves men, but I don't know how universal it is.
On a related note some psychological theorists suggest that not having a ritual process (with a significant element of 'trial by ordeal') to mark the transition from boyhood to manhood fundamentally impairs the psychological maturity of many males in western civilisation. Such ceremonies are nearly ubiquitous across tribal cultures.
I've heard it. However, how common are such ceremonies in non-tribal cultures?
Alternate hypothesis: having responsibility delayed for years beyond what's normal causes lack of psychological maturity. Or, maybe there isn't less maturity, maybe there's just more complaining about the lack of it.
Also, I was hoping to hear from from some of the men here about whether they personally feel this need to be definitively accepted as men.
I don't think we should push too hard on the dichotomy of boy vs. man. I would emphasize that there is individual variation in how well men they can perform/achieve masculinity in their sub-culture. Women face the issue as well.
Your observations about reality differ to mine. In fact, in some cases the reverse seems to be the case.
I was thinking specifically about the efforts to keep women out of the military, and complaints from women that other women give too much credit to men for doing child care.
What have you got in mind?
That one I can see. Bizarre too... as far as I can see every woman who is out getting shot puts me one dead body further away from being conscripted. (Mind you I feel instinctively uncomfortable writing that statement. In many circumstances I would censor myself because I estimate it would lower my sexual attractiveness in the eyes of females.)
Really? There are men that get too much credit for doing child care? What I would expect is women getting criticism from other women for being with a man who is low status (perhaps not in so many words). It is the kind of role that men are encouraged to take on but in most cases penalised socially for submitting to that pressure.
My own occupation/training (IT).
I've seen the complaints.
Men also lose status for being stay-at-home dads, so it's complicated.