Vladimir_M comments on Open Thread: July 2010 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: komponisto 01 July 2010 09:20PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (653)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Vladimir_M 08 July 2010 08:17:18AM 3 points [-]

Yes, among the books on the race-IQ controversy that I've seen, I agree that these are the closest thing to an unbiased source. However, I disagree that nothing very significant has happened in the field since their publication -- although unfortunately, taken together, these new developments have led to an even greater overall confusion. I have in mind particularly the discovery of the Flynn effect and the Minnesota adoption study, which have made it even more difficult to argue coherently either for a hereditarian or an environmentalist theory the way it was done in the seventies.

Also, even these books fail to present a satisfactory treatment of some basic questions where a competent statistician should be able to clarify things fully, but horrible confusion has nevertheless persisted for decades. Here I refer primarily to the use of the regression to the mean as a basis for hereditarian arguments. From what I've seen, Jensen is still using such arguments as a major source of support for his positions, constantly replying to the existing superficial critiques with superficial counter-arguments, and I've never seen anyone giving this issue the full attention it deserves.

Comment author: satt 08 July 2010 09:57:46PM *  1 point [-]

However, I disagree that nothing very significant has happened in the field since their publication

Me too! I just don't think there's been much new data brought to the table. I agree with you in counting Flynn's 1987 paper and the Minnesota followup report, and I'd add Moore's 1986 study of adopted black children, the recent meta-analyses by Jelte Wicherts and colleagues on the mean IQs of sub-Saharan Africans, Dickens & Flynn's 2006 paper on black Americans' IQs converging on whites' (and at a push, Rushton & Jensen's reply along with Dickens & Flynn's), Fryer & Levitt's 2007 paper about IQ gaps in young children, and Fagan & Holland's papers (2002, 2007, 2009) on developing tests where minorities score equally to whites. I guess Richard Lynn et al.'s papers on the mean IQ of East Asians count as well, although it's really the black-white comparison that gets people's hackles up.

Having written out a list, it does looks longer than I expected...although it's not much for 30-35 years of controversy!

Also, even these books fail to present a satisfactory treatment of some basic questions where a competent statistician should be able to clarify things fully, but horrible confusion has nevertheless persisted for decades. Here I refer primarily to the use of the regression to the mean as a basis for hereditarian arguments.

Amen. The regression argument should've been dropped by 1980 at the latest. In fairness to Flynn, his book does namecheck that argument and explain why it's wrong, albeit only briefly.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 08 July 2010 11:34:59AM *  0 points [-]

What would appropriate policy be if we just don't know to what extent IQ is different in different groups?

Comment author: Vladimir_M 09 July 2010 08:25:49AM *  4 points [-]

Well, if you'll excuse the ugly metaphor, in this area even the positive questions are giant cans of worms lined on top of third rails, so I really have no desire to get into public discussions of normative policy issues.