Mitchell_Porter comments on A proposal for a cryogenic grave for cryonics - Less Wrong

17 [deleted] 06 July 2010 07:01PM

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Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 09 July 2010 02:27:34AM *  0 points [-]

I think that cryonics patients could actually be repaired

So do I. But the result will be a copy. During sleep and hypothermia, the brain remains in the same physical phase. Cellular metabolism never shuts down, for example. But I would be rather surprised if the "neurophysical correlate of selfhood" survives the freezing transition.

ETA: See followup comment.

Comment author: ciphergoth 09 July 2010 12:10:10PM 5 points [-]

When you say you would be surprised, is there any actual observation that could surprise you here?

Comment author: [deleted] 09 July 2010 01:48:42PM 2 points [-]

It's not as though Mitchell's belief is uniquely untestable. It's more like we can't collect any evidence at all about whether identity is preserved, just by reanimating a bunch of people and asking them.

We'd need some sort of neurological description of what "selfhood" means, and then presumably testing to see whether this property is preserved after reanimation would be the actual surprising observation.

Until then, it's irrational to dismiss either theory based purely on the argument that "even if we cryopreserve you, it wouldn't falsify your theory", since this applies to both sides.

Comment author: ciphergoth 09 July 2010 01:57:31PM 1 point [-]

No, the position that is unfalsifiable is that there is a distinction here at all.

Comment author: randallsquared 11 July 2010 07:45:35PM 1 point [-]

I don't think so. I'm a processist (though I do think it's unlikely that quantum effects matter), but I can imagine kinds of discoveries that would falsify my current belief on that matter. It could turn out, once we localize and understand consciousness:

...that it's not even "on" or merely suspended all the time, but sometimes is "off" in the normal course of brain operation.

...that it's possible to erase clear memories even with the brain in the same physical state (this would support either Porter's view or some more spiritual dualism).

...that there is more than a single thread of consciousness, and no particular continuity of identity for the person as a whole, even though some thread is operating all the time.

Of those, one and three even seem plausible, but I can't think of a way to do the experiments at our current level of understanding and technology. In any case, once we actually have a working and well-tested theory of consciousness, identity will either vanish or be similarly well-understood.

Comment deleted 09 July 2010 01:04:42PM [-]
Comment author: ciphergoth 09 July 2010 01:31:07PM 2 points [-]

I suspect you wrong him here - I'm guessing post-freeze Mitchell would say "Obviously I feel like I'm the same person, but now I know I've been cryopreserved I must conclude I'm a copy, not the real thing. I feel good about being alive, but it's copy-Mitchell who feels good, not the guy who got frozen."

Comment deleted 09 July 2010 11:26:00AM [-]
Comment author: soreff 09 July 2010 05:15:31PM 0 points [-]

So that is why there is such interest in vitrification! grin/duck/run...