Open Thread: July 2010, Part 2
This thread is for the discussion of Less Wrong topics that have not appeared in recent posts. If a discussion gets unwieldy, celebrate by turning it into a top-level post.
This thread is for the discussion of Less Wrong topics that have not appeared in recent posts. If a discussion gets unwieldy, celebrate by turning it into a top-level post.
Comments (770)
-- Jason Kottke
If breast cancer and melanomas are more likely on the left side of the body at a level that's statistically significant, that's interesting even if the proposed explanation is nonsense.
Even so, ISTM that picking through the linked article for its many flaws in reasoning would have been more interesting even than not-quite-endorsing its conclusions.
What I find interesting is the question, what motivates an influential blogger with a large audience to pass on this particular kind of factoid?
The ICCI blog has an explanation based on relevance theory and "the joy of superstition", but unfortunately (?) it involves Paul the Octopus:
(ETA: note the parallel between the above and "I post these things because they are interesting, not because they're right". And to be lucid, my own expectations of relevance get aroused for the same reasons as most everyone else's; I just happen to be lucky enough to know a blog where I can raise the discussion to the meta level.)
Bullshit. The 'skeptical' thing to do would be to take 30 seconds to think about the theory's physical plausibility before posting it on one's blog, not regurgitate the theory and cover one's ass with an I'm-so-balanced-look-there's-two-sides-to-the-issue fallacy.
TV-frequency EM radiation is non-ionizing, so how's it going to transfer enough energy to your cells to cause cancer? It could heat you up, or it could induce currents within your body. But however much heating it causes, the temperature increase caused by heat insulation from your mattress and cover is surely much greater, and I reckon you'd get stronger induced currents from your alarm clock/computer/ceiling light/bedside lamp or whatever other circuitry's switched on in your bedroom. (And wouldn't you get a weird arrhythmia kicking off before cancer anyway?)
(As long as I'm venting, it's at least a little silly for Kottke to say he's posting it because it's 'interesting' and not because it's 'right,' because surely it's only interesting because it might be right? Bleh.)
Yup, that's the bit I thought made it appropriate for LW.
It reminded me of my speculations on "asymmetric intellectual warfare" - we are bombarded all day long with things that are "interesting" in one sense or another but should still be dismissed outright, if only because paying attention to all of them would leave us with nothing left over for worthwhile items.
But we can also note regularities in the patterns of which claims of this kind get raised to the level of serious consideration. I'm still perplexed by how seriously mainstream media takes claims of "electrosensitivity", but not totally surprised: there is something that seems "culturally appropriate" to the claims. The rate at which cell phones have spread through our culture has made "radio waves" more available as a potential source of worry, and has tended to legitimize a particular subset of all possible absurd claims.
(So this is just about the first real post I made here and I kinda have stage fright posting here, so if its horribly bad and uninteresting and so please tell me what I did wrong, ok? Also, I've been frying to figure out the spelling and grammar and failed, sorry about that.) (Disclaimer: This post is humorous, and not everything should be taken all to seriously! As someone (Boxo) reviewing it put it: "it's like a contest between 3^^^3 and common sense!")
1) My analysis of http://lesswrong.com/lw/kn/torture_vs_dust_specks/
Lets say 1 second of torture is -1 000 000 utilions. Because there are about 100 000 seconds in a day, and about 20 000 days in 50 years, that makes -2*10^15 utilions.
Now, I'm tempted to say a dust speck has no negative utility at all, but I'm not COMPLETELY certain I'm right. Let's say there's a 1/1000 000 chance I'm wrong*, in which case the dust speck is -1 utilion. That means the the dust speck option is -1 * 10^-6 * 3^^^3, which is approximately -3^^^3.
-3^^^3 < -10^15, therefore I chose the torture.
2) The ant speck problem.
The ant speck problem is like the dust speck problem, except instead of being 3^^^3 humans that get specks in their eyes, it's 3^^^3 ordinary ants, and it's a billion humans being tortured for a millennia.
Now, I'm bigoted against ants, and pretty sure I don't value them as much as humans. In fact, with 99.9999% certain I don't value ants suffering at all. The remaining probability space is dominated by that moral value is equal to 1000^[the number of neurons in the entity's brain] for brains similar to earth type animals. Humans have about 10^11, ants have about 10^4 That means an ant is worth about 10^(-10^14) as much as a human, if it's worth anything at all.
Now lets multiply this together... -1 utilions * 10^(-10^14) discount * 1/10^6 that ants are worth anything at all * 1/10^6 that dust specks are bad * 3^^^3... That's about -3^^^3!
And for the other side: -10^15 for 50 years. Multiply that with 20, and then with the billion... about -10^25.
-3^^^3 < -10^25, therefore I chose the torture!
((*I do not actually think this, the numbers are for the sake of argument and have little to do with my actual beliefs at all.))
3) Obvious derived problems: There are variations of the ant problem, can you work out and post what if...
The ants will only be tortured if also all the protons in the earth decays within one second of the choice, the torture however is certain?
Instead of ants, you have bacteria, with behaviour as complicated as to be equivalent of 1/100 neurons?
The source you get the info from is unreliable, there's only a 1/googol chance the specks could actual happen, while the torture, again, is certain?
All of the above?
I assign ants exactly zero utility, but the wild surge objection still applies - you can't affect the universe in 3^^^3 ways without some risk of dramatic unintended results.
My argument is that you ALMOST certainly don't care about ants at all, but that there is some extremely small uncertainty about what your values are. The disutility of getting a dust speck in your eye also has that argument.
Given some heavy utilitarian assumptions. This isn't an argument, it's more plausible to just postulate disutility of torture without explanation.
It's arbitrarily chosen from the dust speck being -1, I find it easier to imagine one second of torture than years for comparing to something that happens in less than a second. It's just an example.
The importance of an argument doesn't matter for the severity of an error in reasoning present in that argument. The error might be unimportant in itself, but that it was made in an unimportant argument doesn't argue for the unimportance of the error.
Reading Michael Vassar's comments on WrongBot's article (http://lesswrong.com/lw/2i6/forager_anthropology/2c7s?c=1&context=1#2c7s) made me feel that the current technique of learning how to write a LW post isn't very efficient (read lots of LW, write a post, wait for lots of comments, try to figure out how their issues could be resolved, write another post etc - it uses up lots of the writer's time and lot's of the commentors time).
I was wondering whether there might be a more focused way of doing this. Ie. A short term workshop, a few writers who have been promoted offer to give feedback to a few writers who are struggling to develop the necessary rigour etc by providing a faster feedback cycle, the ability to redraft an article rather than having to start totally afresh and just general advice.
Some people may not feel that this is very beneficial - there's no need for writing to LW to be made easier (in fact, possibly the opposite) but first off, I'm not talking about making writing for LW easier, I'm talking about making more of the writing of a higher quality. And secondly, I certainly learn a lot better given a chance to interact on that extra level. I think learning to write at an LW level is an excellent way of achieving LW aim of helping people to think at that level.
I'm a long time lurker but I haven't even really commented before because I find it hard to jump to that next level of understanding that enables me to communicate anything of value. I wonder if there are others who feel the same or a similar way.
Good idea? Bad idea?
We could use a more structured system, perhaps. At this point, there's nothing to stop you from writing a post before you're ready, except your own modesty. Raise the threshold, and nobody will have to yell at people for writing posts that don't quite work.
Possibilities:
Significantly raise the minimum karma level.
An editorial system: a more "advanced" member has to read your post before it becomes top-level.
A wiki page about instructions for posting. It should include: a description of appropriate subject matter, formatting instructions, common errors in reasoning or etiquette.
A social norm that encourages editing (including totally reworking an essay.) The convention for blog posts on the internet in general mandates against editing -- a post is supposed to be an honest record of one's thoughts at the time. But LessWrong is different, and we're supposed to be updating as we learn from each other. We could make "Please edit this" more explicit.
A related thought on karma -- I have the suspicion that we upvote more than we downvote. It would be possible to adjust the site to keep track of each person's upvote/downvote stats. That is, some people are generous with karma, and some people give more negative feedback. We could calibrate ourselves better if we had a running tally.
Another technical solution. Not trivial to implement, but also contains significant side benefits.
Some karma + passing test gets top posting privileges.
I have to confess I abused my newly acquired posting privileges and probably diluted the site's value with a couple of posts. Thank goodness they were rather short :). I took the hint though and took to participating in the comment discussion and reading sequences until I am ready to contribute at a higher level.
Kuro5hin had an editorial system, where all posts started out in a special section where they were separate and only visible to logged in users. Commenters would label their comments as either "topical" or "editorial", and all editorial comments would be deleted when the post left editing; and votes cast during editing would determine where the post went (front page, less prominent section, or deleted).
Unfortunately, most of the busy smart people only looked at the posts after editing, while the trolls and people with too much free time managed the edit queue, eventually destroying the quality of the site and driving the good users away. It might be possible to salvage that model somehow, though.
We upvote much more than we downvote - just look at the mean comment and post scores. Also, the number of downvotes a user can make is capped at their karma.
Is there any consensus about the "right" way to write a LW post? I see a lot of diversity in style, topic, and level of rigor in highly-voted posts. I certainly have no good way to tell if I'm doing it right; Michael Vassar doesn't think so, but he's never had a post voted as highly as my first one was. (Voting is not solely determined by post quality; this is a big part of the problem.)
I would certainly love to have a better way to get feedback than the current mechanisms; it's indisputable that my writing could be better. Being able to workshop posts would be great, but I think it would be hard to find the right people to do the workshopping; off the top of my head I can really only think of a handful of posters I'd want to have doing that, and I get the impression that they're all too busy. Maybe not, though.
(I think this is a great idea.)
I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with your post, but newer posts get a much higher level of karma than old ones, which must be taken into account. Some of the core sequence posts have only 2 karma, for example.
Agreed, and that is exactly the sort of factor I was alluding to in my parenthetical.
I suppose there's a few options including: See who's willing to run workshops and then once that's known, people can choose whether to join or not. If none of the top contributors could be convinced to run them then they may still be useful for people of a lower level of post writing ability (which I suspect is where I am, at the moment). The other thing is, even regardless of who ran the workshops, the ability to get faster feedback and to redraft gives a chance to develop an article more thoroughly before posting it properly and may give a sense of where improvements can be made and where the gaps in thinking and writing are.
But I guess that questions like that are secondary to the question of whether enough people think it's a good enough idea and whether anyone would be willing to run workshops at all.
Upvoted for raising the topic, but the approach I'd prefer is jimrandomh's suggestion of having all posts pass through an editorial stage before being posted 'for real.'
Sparked by my recent interested in PredictionBook.com, I went back to take a look at Wrong Tomorrow, a prediction registry for pundits - but it's down. And doesn't seem to have been active recently.
I've emailed the address listed on the original OB ANN for WT, but while I'm waiting on that, does anyone know what happened to it?
I got a reply from Maciej Ceglowski today; apparently WT was taken down to free resources for another site. It's back up, for now.
(I have to say, seriously going through prediction sites is kind of discouraging. The free ones all seem to be marginal and very unpopular, while the commercial ones aren't usable in the long run and are too fragmented.)
In relation to these sorts of sites, what's a normal level of success on this sort of thing for LW readers? If people chose ten things now that they thought were fifty percent likely to occur by the end of next week, would exactly five of them end up happening?
I don't know of any LWers who have used PB enough to really have a solid level of normal. My own PB stats are badly distorted by all my janitorial work.
I suspect not many LWers have put in the work for calibration; at least, I see very few scores posted at http://lesswrong.com/lw/1f8/test_your_calibration/
So, I couldn't say. It would be nice if we were all calibrated. (But incidentally you can be perfectly calibrated and not have 5/10 of 50% items happen; it could just be a bad week for you.)
UDT/TDT understanding check: Of the 3 open problems Eliezer lists for TDT, the one UDT solves is counterfactual mugging. Is this correct? (A yes or no is all I'm looking for, but if the answer is no, an explanation of any length would be appreciated)
Yes.
So TDT fails on counterfactual mugging, as far as you understand it to work, and the reasoning I gave here is in error?
Why are Roko's posts deleted? Every comment or post he made since April last year is gone! WTF?
Edit: It looks like this discussion sheds some light on it. As best I can tell, Roko said something that someone didn't want to get out, so someone (maybe Roko?) deleted a huge chunk of his posts just to be safe.
I've deleted them myself. I think that my time is better spent looking for a quant job to fund x-risk research than on LW, where it seems I am actually doing active harm by staying rather than merely wasting time. I must say, it has been fun, but I think I am in the region of negative returns, not just diminishing ones.
So you've deleted the posts you've made in the past. This is harmful for the blog, disrupts the record and makes the comments by other people on those posts unavailable.
For example, consider these posts, and comments on them, that you deleted:
I believe it's against community blog ethics to delete posts in this manner. I'd like them restored.
Edit: Roko accepted this argument and said he's OK with restoring the posts under an anonymous username (if it's technically possible).
And I'd like the post of Roko's that got banned restored. If I were Roko I would be very angry about having my post deleted because of an infinitesimal far-fetched chance of an AI going wrong. I'm angry about it now and I didn't even write it. That's what was "harmful for the blog, disrupts the record and makes the comments by other people on those posts unavailable." That's what should be against the blog ethics.
I don't blame him for removing all of his contributions after his post was treated like that.
It's ironic that, from a timeless point of view, Roko has done well. Future copies of Roko on LessWrong will not receive the same treatment as this copy did, because this copy's actions constitute proof of what happens as a result.
(This comment is part of my ongoing experiment to explain anything at all with timeless/acausal reasoning.)
I just noticed this. A brilliant disclaimer!
What "treatment" did you have in mind? At best, Roko made a honest mistake, and the deletion of a single post of his was necessary to avoid more severe consequences (such as FAI never being built). Roko's MindWipe was within his rights, but he can't help having this very public action judged by others.
What many people will infer from this is that he cares more about arguing for his position (about CEV and other issues) than honestly providing info, and now that he has "failed" to do that he's just picking up his toys and going home.
It's also generally impolite (though completely within the TOS) to delete a person's contributions according to some arbitrary rules. Given that Roko is the seventh highest contributor to the site, I think he deserves some more respect. Since Roko was insulted, there doesn't seem to be a reason for him to act nicely to everyone else. If you really want the posts restored, it would probably be more effective to request an admin to do so.
Parent is inaccurate: although Roko's comments are not, Roko's posts (i.e., top-level submissions) are still available, as are their comment sections minus Roko's comments (but Roko's name is no longer on them and they are no longer accessible via /user/Roko/ URLs).
Not via user/Roko or via /tag/ or via /new/ or via /top/ or via / - they are only accessible through direct links saved by previous users, and that makes them much harder to stumble upon. This remains a cost.
Could the people who have such links post them here?
I understand. I've been thinking about quitting LessWrong so that I can devote more time to earning money for paperclips.
Does not seem very nice to take such an out-of-context partial quote from Eliezer's comment. You could have included the first paragraph, where he commented on the unusual nature of the language he's going to use now (the comment indeed didn't start off as you here implied), and also the later parts where he again commented on why he thought such unusual language was appropriate.
I'm not them, but I'd very much like your comment to stay here and never be deleted.
Your up-votes didn't help, it seems.
Woah.
Thanks for alerting me to this fact, Tim.
I'm deeply confused by this logic. There was one post where due to a potentially weird quirk of some small fraction of the population, reading that post could create harm. I fail to see how the vast majority of other posts are therefore harmful. This is all the more the case because this breaks the flow of a lot of posts and a lot of very interesting arguments and points you've made.
ETA: To be more clear, leaving LW doesn't mean you need to delete the posts.
I am disapointed. I have just started on LW, and found many of Roko's posts and comments interesting and consilient with my current and to be a useful bridge between aspects of LW that are less consilient. :(
I see. A side effect of banning one post, I think; only one post should've been banned, for certain. I'll try to undo it. There was a point when a prototype of LW had just gone up, someone somehow found it and posted using an obscene user name ("masterbater"), and code changes were quickly made to get that out of the system when their post was banned.
Holy Cthulhu, are you people paranoid about your evil administrator. Notice: I am not Professor Quirrell in real life.
EDIT: No, it wasn't a side effect, Roko did it on purpose.
I'm not sure we should believe you.
In a certain sense, it is.
Indeed. You are open about your ambition to take over the world, rather than hiding behind the identity of an academic.
Of course, we already established that you're Light Yagami.
And that is exactly what Professor Quirrell would say!
Professor Quirrell wouldn't give himself away by writing about Professor Quirrell, even after taking into account that this is exactly what he wants you to think.
Of course <level of reasoning plus one> as you know very well. :)
cf. Order of the Stick on the double-bluff.
Something I wonder about just how is how many people on LW might have difficulties with the metaphors used.
An example: In http://lesswrong.com/lw/1e/raising_the_sanity_waterline/, I still haven't quite figured what a waterline is supposed to mean in that context, or what kind of associations the word has, and neither had someone else I asked about that.
I think "waterline" here should be taken in the same context as "A rising tide floats all boats".
Are there any Less Wrongers in the Grand Rapids area that might be interested in meeting up at some point?
Grand Rapids, MI, you mean?
I'm in Michigan, but West Bloomfield, so a couple hours away, but still, if we found some more MI LWers, maybe.
Something weird is going on. Every time I check, virtually all my recent comments are being steadily modded up, but I'm slowly losing karma. So even if someone is on an anti-Silas karma rampage, they're doing it even faster than my comments are being upvoted.
Since this isn't happening on any recent thread that I can find, I'd like to know if there's something to this -- if I made a huge cluster of errors on thread a while ago. (I also know someone who might have motive, but I don't want to throw around accusations at this point.)
I see this as a feature request - would be great to have a view of your recent posts/comments that had action (karma or descendant comments). (rhetorically) If karma is meant as feedback, this would be a great way to get it.
I tend to vote down a wide swath of your comments when I come across them in a thread such as this one or this one, attempting to punish you for being mean and wasting peoples' time. I'm a late reader, so you may not notice those comments being further downvoted; I guess I should post saying what I've done and why.
In the spirit of your desire for explanations, it is for the negative tone of your posts. You create this tone by the small additions you make that cause the text to sound more like verbal speech, specifically: emphasis, filler words, rhetorical questions, and the like. These techniques work significantly better when someone is able to gauge your body language and verbal tone of voice. In text, they turn your comments hostile.
That, and you repeat yourself. A lot.
This reminds me of something I mentioned as an improvement for LW a while ago, though for other reasons-- the ability to track all changes in karma for one's posts.
Is it my imagination, or is "social construct" the sociologist version of "emergent phenomenon"?
Slashdot having an epic case of tribalism blinding their judgment? This poster tries to argue that, despite Intelligent Design proponents being horribly wrong, it is still appropriate for them to use the term "evolutionist" to refer to those they disagree with.
The reaction seems to be basically, "but they're wrong, why should they get to use that term?"
Huh?
I haven't regularly read Slashdot in several years, but I seem to recall that it was like that pretty much all the time.
There's a legitimate reason to not want ID proponents and creationists to use the term "evolutionist" although it isn't getting stated well in that thread. In particular, the term is used to portray evolution as an ideology with ideological adherents. Thus, the use of the term "evolutionism" as well. It seems like the commentators in question have heard some garbled bit about that concern and aren't quite reproducing it accurately.
Thanks for the reply.
Wouldn't your argument apply just the same to any inflection of a term to have "ism"?
If you and I are arguing about whether wumpuses are red, and you think they are, is it a poor portrayal to refer to you as a "reddist"? Does that imply it's an ideology, etc?
What would you suggest would be a better term for ID proponents to use?
I presume someone who took this argument seriously would say that either a) that's its ok to use the term if they stop making ridiculous claims about ideology or b) suggest "mainstream biologists" or "evolution proponents" both of which are wordy but accurate (I don't think that even ID proponents would generally disagree with the point that they aren't the mainstream opinion among biologists.)
Do you expect that, in general, people should never use the form "X-ist", but rather, use "X proponent"? Should evolution proponents use "Intelligent Design advocate" and "creation advocate"?
If a belief doesn't fit an ideological or religious framework, I think that X-ist and ism are often bad. I actually use the phrases "ID proponent" fairly often partially for this reason. I'm not sure however that this case is completely symmetric given that ID proponents self-identify as part of the "intelligent design movement" (a term used for example repeatedly by William Dembski and occasionally by Michael Behe.)
This is my PGP public key. In the future, anything I write which seems especially important will be signed. This is more for signaling purposes than any fear of impersonation -- signing a post is a way to strongly signal its seriousness.
You may want to copy this key block to a user page on the LW wiki, where it can be easily referenced in the future.
That would also have the advantage of hopefully requiring different credentials to access, so it would be marginally harder to change the recorded public key while signing a forged post with it.
Not just harder; it would be all but impossible since the wiki keeps a hstory of all changes (unlike LW posts) and jimrandomh is not a wiki sysop.
Given all the recent discussion of contrived infinite torture scenarios, I'm curious to hear if anyone has reconsidered their opinion of my post on Dangerous Thoughts. I am specifically not interested in discussing the details or plausibility of said scenarios.
Daniel Dennett and Linda LaScola on Preachers who are not believers:
A second post has been banned. Strange: it was on a totally different topic from Roko's.
(comment edited)
I wonder why PlaidX's post isn't getting deleted - the discussion there is way closer to the forbidden topic.
Still the sort of thing that will send people close to the OCD side of the personality spectrum into a spiral of nightmares, which, please note, has apparently already happened in at least two cases. I'm surprised by this, but accept reality. It's possible we may have more than the usual number of OCD-side-of-the-spectrum people among us.
Was the discussion in question epistemologicaly interesting (vs. intellectual masturbation)? If so, how many OCD personalities joining the site would call for closing the thread? I am curious about decision criteria. Thanks.
As an aside, I've had some SL-related psychological effects, particularly related to material notion of self: a bit of trouble going to sleep, realizing that logically there is little distinction from death-state. This lasted a short while, but then you just learn to "stop worrying and love the bomb". Besides "time heals all wounds" certain ideas helped, too. (I actually think this is an important SL, though it does not sit well within the SciFi hierarchy).
This worked for me, but I am generally very low on the OCD scale, and I am still mentally not quite ready for some of the discussions going on here.
It is impossible to have rules without Mr. Potter exploiting them.
Is it OCD or depression? Depression can include (is defined by?) obsessively thinking about things that make one feel worse.
Depressive thinking generally focuses on short term issues or general failure. I'm not sure this reflects that. Frankly, it seems to come across superficially at least more like paranoia, especially of the form that one historically saw (and still sees) in some Christians worrying about hell and whether or not they are saved. The reaction to these threads is making me substantially update my estimates both for LW as a rational community and for our ability to discuss issues in a productive fashion.
Yep. But not unexpectedly this time; homung posted in the open thread that he was looking for 20 karma so he could post on the subject, and I sent him a private message saying he shouldn't, which he either didn't see or ignored.
Interesting thread on self-control over on reddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/cogsci/comments/ctliw/is_there_any_evidence_suggesting_that_practicing/
Yep - I'm having some fun there right now, my nick is want_to_want. Anyone knowledgeable in psych research, join in!
So I was pondering doing a post on the etiology of sexual orientation (as a lead-in to how political/moral beliefs lead to factual ones, not vice versa).
I came across this article, which I found myself nodding along with, until I noticed the source...
Oops! Although they stress the voluntary nature of their interventions, NARTH is an organization devoted to zapping the fabulous out of gay people, using such brilliant methodology as slapping a rubber band against one's wrist every time one sees an attractive person with the wrong set of chromosomes. From the creators of the rhythm method.
Look at that article, though. And look at the site's mission statement, etc. while you're at it. The reason I posted this is because I was disturbed by how well the dark side has done here, rhetorically. And also by how they have used true facts (homosexuality is definitely not even close to 100% innate) to argue for something which is (1) morally questionable at best, given the possibility of coercion and the fact that you're fixing something that's not broken, (2) not even efficacious (no, I am not thrilled with that source).
For what it's worth, rubber band snapping is a pretty popular thought-stopping technique in CBT for dealing with obsessive-type behaviors, though I believe there's some debate over how effective it is. I know it's been used to address morbid jealousy, though I don't know to what extent or if more scientific studies have been conducted.
Rationality applied to swimming
The author was a lousy swimmer for a long time, but got respect because he put in so much effort. Eventually he became a swim coach, and he quickly noticed that the bad swimmers looked the way he did, and the good swimmers looked very different, so he started teaching the bad swimmers to look like the good swimmers, and began becoming a better swimmer himself.
Later, he got into the physics of good swimming. For example, it's more important to minimize drag than to put out more effort.
I'm posting this partly because it's always a pleasure to see rationality, partly because the most recent chapter of Methods of Rationality reminded me of it, and mostly because it's a fine example of clue acquisition.
Do you like the LW wiki page (actually, pages) on Free Will? I just wrote a post to Scott Aaronson's blog, and the post assumed an understanding of the compatibilist notion of free will. I hoped to link to the LW wiki, but when I looked at it, I decided not to, because the page is unsuitable as a quick introduction.
EDIT: Come over, it is an interesting discussion of highly LW-relevant topics. I even managed to drop the "don't confuse the map with the territory"-bomb. As a bonus, you can watch the original topic of Scott's post: His diavlog with Anthony Aguirre
Has anyone been doing, or thinking of doing, a documentary (preferably feature-length and targeted at popular audiences) about existential risk? People seem to love things that tell them the world is about to end, whether it's worth believing or not (2012 prophecies, apocalyptic religion, etc., and on the more respectable side: climate change, and... anything else?), so it may be worthwhile to have a well-researched, rational, honest look at the things that are actually most likely to destroy us in the next century, while still being emotionally compelling enough to get people to really comprehend it, care about it, and do what they can about it. (Geniuses viewing it might decide to go into existential risk reduction when they might otherwise have turned to string theory; it could raise awareness so that existential risk reduction is seen more widely as an important and respectable area of research; it could attract donors to organizations like FHI, SIAI, Foresight, and Lifeboat; etc.)
Sure, I've been thinking about it, I need $10MM to produce it though.
Thought without Language Discussion of adults who've grown up profoundly deaf without having been exposed to sign language or lip-reading.
Edited because I labeled the link as "Language without Thought-- this counts as an example of itself.
That is amazingly interesting.
There is something that bother's me and I would like to know if it bothers anyone else. I call it "Argument by Silliness"
Consider this quote from the Allais Malaise post: "If satisfying your intuitions is more important to you than money, do whatever the heck you want. Drop the money over Niagara Falls. Blow it all on expensive champagne. Set fire to your hair. Whatever."
I find this to be a common end point when demonstrating what it means to be rational. Someone will advance a good argument that correctly computes/deduces how you should act, given a certain goal. In the post quoted above, that would be maximizing your money. And in order to get their point across, they cite all the obviously silly things you could otherwise do. To a certain extent, it can be more blackmail than argument, because your audience does not want to seem a fool and so he dutifully agrees that yes, it would be silly to throw your money off of Niagara Falls and he is certainly a reasonable man who would never do that so of course he agrees with you.
Now, none of the intelligent readers on LW need to be blackmailed this way because we all understand what rationality demands of us and we respond to solid arguments not rhetoric. And Eliezer is just using that bit of trickery to get a basic point across to the uninitiated.
But the argument does little to help those who already grasp the concept improve their understanding. Absurdity does not mean you have correctly implemented a "reductio ad absurdum" technique. You have to be careful because he appealed to something that is self-evidently absurd and you should be wary of anything considered self-evident. Actually, I think it is more a case of being commonly accepted as absurd, but you should be just as wary of anything commonly accepted as silly. And you should be careful about where you think it is the former but it's actually the later.
The biggest problem, however, is that silly is a class in which we put things that can be disregarded. Silly is not a truth statement. It is a value statement. It says things are unimportant, not that they are untrue. It says that according to a given standard, this thing is ranked very low, so low in fact that it is essentially worthless.
Now, disregarding things is important for thinking. It is often impossible to think through the whole problem, so we at first concern ourselves with just a part and put the troublesome cases aside for later. In the Allais Malaise post, Eliezer was concerned just with the minor problem of "How do we maximize money under these particular constraints?" and separating out intuitions was part of having a well-defined, solvable problem to discuss.
But the silliness he cites only proves that the two standards - maximizing money and satisfying your intuitions - conflict in a particular case. It tells you little about any other case or the standards themselves.
The point I most want to make is "Embrace what you find silly," but since this comment has gone on very long, so I am going to break this up into several postings.
Yeah-- argument by silliness (I think I'd describe it as finding something about the argument which can be made to sound silly) is one of the things I don't like about normal people.
That's why it can be such an effective tactic when persuading normal people. You can get them to commit to your side and then they rationalize themselves into believing it's truth (which it is) because they don't want to admit they were conned.
Luke Muehlhauser just posted about Friendly AI and Desirism at his blog. It tends to have a more general audience than LW, comments posted there could help spread the word. Desirism and the Singularity
Desirism and the Singularity, in which one of my favourite atheist communities is inching towards singularitarian ideas.
Two things of interest to Less Wrong:
First, there's an article about intelligence and religiosity. I don't have access to the papers in question right now, but the upshot is apparently that the correlation between intelligence (as measured by IQ and other tests) and irreligiosity can be explained with minimal emphasis on intelligence but rather on ability to process information and estimate your own knowledge base as well. They found for example that people who were overconfident about their knowledge level were much more likely to be religious. There may still be correlation v. causation issues, but tentatively it looks like having fewer cognitive biases and having better default rationality actually makes one less religious.
The second matter of interest to LW: Today's featured article on the English Wikipedia is the article on confirmation bias.
Paul Graham on guarding your creative productivity:
Looks like Emotiv's BCI is making noticeable progress (from the Minsky demo)
http://www.ted.com/talks/tan_le_a_headset_that_reads_your_brainwaves.html
but still using bold guys :)
What's current thought about how you'd tell that AI is becoming more imminent?
I'm inclined to think that AI can't happen before the natural language problem is solved.
Is there a bias, maybe called the 'compensation bias', that causes one to think that any person with many obvious positive traits or circumstances (really attractive, rich, intelligent, seemingly happy, et cetera) must have at least one huge compensating flaw or a tragic history or something? I looked through Wiki's list of cognitive biases and didn't see it, but I thought I'd heard of something like this. Maybe it's not a real bias?
If not, I'd be surprised. Whenever I talk to my non-rationalist friends about how amazing persons X Y or Z are, they invariably (out of 5 or so occasions when I brought it up) replied with something along the lines of 'Well I bet he/she is secretly horribly depressed / a horrible person / full of ennui / not well-liked by friends and family". This is kind of the opposite of the halo effect. It could be that this bias only occurs when someone is asked to evaluate the overall goodness of someone who they themselves have not gotten the chance to respect or see as high status.
Anyway, I know Eliezer had a post called 'competent elites' or summat along these lines, but I'm not sure if this effect is a previously researched bias I'm half-remembering or if it's just a natural consequence of some other biases (e.g. just world bias).
Added: Alternative hypothesis that is more consistent with the halo effect and physical attractiveness stereotype data: my friends are themselves exceptionally physically attractive and competent but have compensatory personal flaws or depression or whatever, and are thus generalizing from one or two examples when assuming that others that share similar traits as themselves would also have such problems. I think this is the more likely of my two current hypotheses, as my friends are exceptionally awesome as well as exceptionally angsty. Aspiring rationalists! Empiricists and theorists needed! Do you have data or alternative hypotheses?
It may have to do with the manner you bring it up - it's not hard to see how saying something like "X is amazing" could be interpreted "X is amazing...and you're not" (after all, how often do you tell your friends how amazing they are?), in which case the bias is some combination of status jockeying, cognitive dissonance and ego protection.
Wow, that's seems like a very likely hypothesis that I completely missed. Is there some piece of knowledge you came in with or heuristic you used that I could have used to think up your hypothesis?
I've spent some time thinking about this, and the best answer I can give is that I spend enough time thinking about the origins and motivations of my own behavior that, if it's something I might conceivably do right now, or (more importantly) at some point in the past, I can offer up a possible motivation behind it.
Apparently this is becoming more and more subconscious, as it took quite a bit of thinking before I realized that that's what I had done.
Is this actually incorrect, though? As far as I know, people have problems and inadequacies. When they solve them, they move on to worrying about other things. It's probably a safe bet that the awesome people you're describing do as well.
What probably is wrong is that general awesomeness makes hidden bad stuff more likely.
Could it be a matter of being excessively influenced by fiction? It's more convenient for stories if a character has some flaws and suffering.
Are any LWer's familiar with adversarial publishing? The basic idea is that two researchers who disagree on some empirically testable proposition come together with an arbiter to design an experiment to resolve their disagreement.
Here's a summary of the process from an article (pdf) I recently read (where Daniel Kahneman was one of the adversaries).
This seems like a great way to resolve academic disputes. Philip Tetlock appears to be an advocate. What do you think?
John Hari - My Experiment With Smart Drugs (2008)
How does everyone here feel about these 'Smart Drugs'? They seem quire tempting to me, but are there candidates that have been in use long and considered safe?
It surprised me that he didn't consider taking provigil one or two days a week.
It also should have surprised me (but didn't-- it just occurred to me) that he didn't consider testing the drugs' effects on his creativity.
There's some discussion here and here.
Nobel Laureate Jean-Marie Lehn is a transhumanist.
Do the various versions of the Efficient Market Hypothesis only apply to investment in existing businesses?
The discussions of possible market blind spots in clothing makes me wonder how close the markets are to efficient for new businesses.
So my brother was watching Bullshit, and saw an exorcist claim that whenever a kid mentions having an invisible friend, they (the exorcist) tell the kid that the friend is a demon that needs exorcising.
Now, being a professional exorcist does not give a high prior for rationality.
But still, even given that background, that's a really uncritically stupid thing to say. And it occurred to me that in general, humans say some really uncritically stupid things to children.
I wonder if this uncriticality has anything to do with, well, not expecting to be criticized. If most of the hacks that humans use in place of rationality are socially motivated, we can safely turn them off when speaking to a child who doesn't know any better.
I wonder how much benefit we'd get, then, by imagining ourselves in all our internal dialogues to be speaking to someone very critical, and far smarter than us?
I do it sometimes, and I think it helps.
Probably not very, because we can't actually imagine what that hypothetical person would say to us. It'd probably end up used as a way to affirm your positions by only testing strong points.
There's a course "Street Fighting Mathematics" on MIT OCW, with an associated free Creative Commons textbook (PDF). It's about estimation tricks and heuristics that can be used when working with math problems. Despite the pop-sounding title, it appears to be written for people who are actually expected to be doing nontrivial math.
Might be relevant to the simple math of everything stuff.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/thewrongstuff/archive/2010/06/28/risky-business-james-bagian-nasa-astronaut-turned-patient-safety-expert-on-being-wrong.aspx
This article is pretty cool, since it describes someone running quality control on a hospital from an engineering perspective. He seems to have a good understanding of how stuff works, and it reads like something one might see on lesswrong.
Have any LWers traveled the US without a car/house/lot-of-money for a year or more? Is there anything an aspiring rationalist in particular should know on top of the more traditional advice? Did you learn much? Was there something else you wish you'd done instead? Any unexpected setbacks (e.g. ended up costing more than expected; no access to books; hard to meet worthwhile people; etc.)? Any unexpected benefits? Was it harder or easier than you had expected? Is it possible to be happy without a lot of social initiative? Did it help you develop social initiative? What questions do you wish you would have asked beforehand, and what are the answers to those questions?
Actually, any possibly relevant advice or wisdom would be appreciated. :D
I'm trying to think of conflicts between subsystems of the brain to see if there's anything more than a simple gerontocratic system of veto power (i.e. evolutionarily older parts of the brain override younger parts). Help?
I've got things like:
What types of internal conflicts am I missing entirely?
I think in dialogue. (More precisely, I think in dialogue about half the time, in more bland verbal thoughts a quarter of the time, and visually a quarter of the time, with lots of overlap. This also includes think-talking to myself when it seems internally that there are 2 people involved.)
Does anyone else find themselves thinking in dialogue often?
I think it probably has something to do with my narcissistic and often counterproductive obsession with other people's perceptions of me, but this hypothesis is the result of generalizing from one example. If it turns out cognitive styles are linked with certain personality traits to a significant degree that would be rather interesting. Have there been studies on this? Anyone have any theories?
I'm very curious about others' cognitive styles, whether not they're similar to my own.
So, LW: how do you think?
I figure the open thread is as good as any for a personal advice request. It might be a rationality issue as well.
I have incredible difficulty believing that anybody likes me. Ever since I was old enough to be aware of my own awkwardness, I have the constant suspicion that all my "friends" secretly think poorly of me, and only tolerate me to be nice.
It occurred to me that this is a problem when a close friend actually said, outright, that he liked me -- and I happen to know that he never tells even white lies, as a personal scruple -- and I simply couldn't believe him. I know I've said some weird or embarrassing things in front of him, and so I just can't conceive of him not looking down on me.
So. Is there a way of improving my emotional response to fit the evidence better? Sometimes there is evidence that people like me (they invite me to events; they go out of their way to spend time with me; or, in the generalized professional sense, I get some forms of recognition for my work). But I find myself ignoring the good and only seeing the bad.
Update for the curious: did talk to a friend (the same one mentioned above, who, I think, is a better "shrink" than some real shrinks) and am now resolved to kick this thing, because sooner or later, excessive approval-seeking will get me in trouble.
I'm starting with what I think of as homebrew CBT: I will not gratuitously apologize or verbally belittle myself. I will try to replace "I suck, everyone hates me" thoughts with saner alternatives. I will keep doing this even when it seems stupid and self-deluding. Hopefully the concrete behavioral stuff will affect the higher-level stuff.
After all. A mathematician I really admire gave me career advice -- and it was "Believe in yourself." Yeah, in those words, and he's a logical guy, not very soft and fuzzy.
Here's my rationalist CBT: the things that depression tells you are way too extreme to be accurate - self-deluding is believing them, not examining them rationally.
You might want to check out Learning Methods-- they've got techniques for tracking down the thoughts behind your emotions, and then looking at whether the thoughts make sense.
For what it's worth, this is often known as Imposter Syndrome, though it's not any sort of real psychiatric diagnosis. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any reliable strategies for defeating it; I have a friend who has had similar issues in a more academic context and she seems to have largely overcome the problem, but I'm not sure as to how.
Alicorn's Living Luminously series covers some methods of systematic mental introspection and tweaking like this. The comments on alief are especially applicable.
An object lesson in how not to think about the future:
http://www.futuretimeline.net/
(from Pharyngula)
Could be funny, if it was a joke... :(
Day-to-day question:
I live in a ground floor apartment with a sunken entryway. Behind my fairly large apartment building is a small wooded area including a pond and a park. During the spring and summer, oftentimes (~1 per 2 weeks) a frog will hop down the entryway at night and hop around on the dusty concrete until dying of dehydration. I occasionally notice them in the morning as I'm leaving for work, and have taken various actions depending on my feelings at the time and the circumstances of the moment.
What would you do, why, and how long would you keep doing it?
How often do you find frogs in the stairwell? Could it make sense to carry something (a plastic bag?) to pick up the frog with so that you don't get slime on your hands?
If it were me, I think I'd go with plastic bag or other hand cover, possibly have room temperature water with me (probably good enough for frogs, and I'm willing to drink the stuff), and put the frog on the lawn unless I'm in the mood for a bit of a walk and seeing the woods.
I have no doubt that I would habitually wonder whether there are weird events in people's lives which are the result of interventions by incomprehensibly powerful beings.
I don't consider frogs to be objects of moral worth.
-- David Pearce via Facebook
What about dogs?
Are there any possible facts that would make you consider frogs objects of moral worth if you found out they were true?
(Edited for clarity.)
"Frogs have subjective experience" is the biggy, there's a number of other things I already know myself to be confused about which impact on that, and so I don't know exactly what I should be looking for in the frog that would make me think it had a sense of its own existence. Certainly there are any number of news items I could receive about the frog's mental abilities, brain complexity, type of algorithmic processing, ability to reflect on its own thought processes, etcetera, which would make me think it was more likely that the frog was what a non-confused person of myself would regard as fulfilling the predicate I currently call "capable of experiencing pain", as opposed to being a more complicated version of neural network reinforcement-learning algorithms that I have no qualms about running on a computer.
A simple example would be if frogs could recognize dots painted on them when seeing themselves in mirrors, or if frogs showed signs of being able to learn very simple grammar like "jump blue box". (If all human beings were being cryonically suspended I would start agitating for the chimpanzees.)
I am very surprised that you suggest that "having subjective experience" is a yes/no thing. I thought it is consensus opinion here that it is not. I am not sure about others on LW, but I would even go three steps further: it is not even a strict ordering of things. It is not even a partial ordering of things. I believe it can be only defined in the context of an Observer and an Object, where Observer gives some amount of weight to the theory that Object's subjective experience is similar to Observer's own.
Links? I'd be interested in seeing what people on LW thought about this, if it's been discussed before. I can understand the yes/no position, or the idea that there's a blurry line somewhere between thermostats and humans, but I don't understand what you mean about the Observer and Object. The Observer in your example has subjective experience?
I like the way you phrased your concern for "subjective experience" -- those are the types of characteristics I care about as well.
But I'm curious: What does ability to learn simple grammar have to do with subjective experience?
I'm surprised. Do you mean you wouldn't trade off a dust speck in your eye (in some post-singularity future where x-risk is settled one way or another) to avert the torture of a billion frogs, or of some noticeable portion of all frogs? If we plotted your attitudes to progressively more intelligent entities, where's the discontinuity or discontinuities?
Hopefully he still thinks there's a small probability of frogs being able to experience pain, so that the expected suffering of frog torture would be hugely greater than a dust speck.
You'd need to change that to 10^6 specks and 10^15 frogs or something, because emotional reaction to choosing to kill the frogs is also part of the consequences of the decision, and this particular consequence might have moral value that outweighs one speck.
Your emotional reaction to a decision about human lives is irrelevant, the lives in question hold most of the moral worth, while with a decision to kill billions of cockroaches (to be safe from the question of moral worth of frogs), the lives of the cockroaches are irrelevant, while your emotional reaction holds most of moral worth.
I'm not so sure. I'm no expert on the subject, but I suspect cockroaches may have moderately rich emotional lives.
Depends. Would that make it harder to get frog legs?
Why not?
Seconded, and how do you (Eliezer) rate other creatures on the Great Chain of Being?
Would you save a stranded frog, though?
Yeah, trying to save the world does that to you.
ETA (May 2012): wow, I can't understand what prompted me to write a comment like this. Sorry.
Axiom: The world is worth saving.
Fact: Frogs are part of the world.
Inference: Frogs are worth saving in proportion to their measure and effect on the world.
Query: Is life worth living if all you do is save more of it?
I don't know. I'm not Eliezer. I'd save the frogs because it's fun, not because of some theory.
As a matter of practical human psychology, no. People cannot just give and give and get nothing back from it but self-generated warm fuzzies, a score kept in your head by rules of your own that no-one else knows or cares about. You can do some of that, but if that's all you do, you just get drained and burned out.
2: I would put the frog in the grass. Warm fuzzies are a great way to start the day, and it only costs 30 seconds.
If you're truly concerned about the well-being of frogs, you might want to do more. You'd also want to ask yourself what you're doing to help frogs everywhere. The fact that the frog ended up on your doorstep doesn't make you extra responsible for the frog; it merely provides you with an opportunity to help.
Also, wash your hands before eating.
The goal of helping frogs is to gain fuzzies, not utilons. Thinking about all the frogs that you don't have the opportunity to help would mean losing those fuzzies.
There's no utility in saving (animal) life? Or is that only for this particular instance?
Edit 20-Jun-2014: Frogs saved since my original post: 21.5. Frogs I've failed to save: 23.5.
From a recent newspaper story:
I haven't checked this calculation at all, but I'm confident that it's wrong, for the simple reason that it is far more likely that some "mathematician" gave them the wrong numbers than that any compactly describable event with odds of 1 in 18 septillion against it has actually been reported on, in writing, in the history of intelligent life on my Everett branch of Earth. Discuss?
It's also far more likely that she cheated. Or that there is a conspiracy in the Lottery to make she win four times.
From the article (there is a near invisible more text button)
And she was the only person ever to have bought 4 tickets (birthday paradoxes and all)...
I did see an analysis of this somewhere, I'll try and dig it up. Here it is. There is hackernews commentary here.
I find this, from the original msnbc article, depressing
Is it depressing because someone with a Ph.D. in math is playing the lottery, or depressing because she must've have figured out something we don't know, given that she's won four times?
The former. It is also depressing because it can be used in articles on the lottery in the following way, "See look at this person good at maths, playing the lottery, that must mean it is a smart thing to play the lottery".
Depressing because someone with a Ph.D. in math is playing the lottery. I don't see any reason to think she figured out some way of beating the lottery.
It seems right to me. If the chance of one ticket winning is one in 10^6, the chance of four specified tickets winning four drawings is one in 10^24.
Of course, the chances of "Person X winning the lottery week 1 AND Person Y winning the lottery week 2 AND Person Z winning the lottery week 3 AND Person W winning the lottery week 4" are also 10^24, and this happens every four weeks.
The most eyebrow-raising part of that article:
That is really a beautiful comment.
It's a good point, and one I never would have thought of on my own: people find it painful to think they might have a chance to survive after they've struggled to give up hope.
One way to fight this is to reframe cryonics as similar to CPR: you'll still die eventually, but this is just a way of living a little longer. But people seem to find it emotionally different, perhaps because of the time delay, or the uncertainty.
I always figured that was a rather large sector of people's negative reaction to cryonics; I'm amazed to find someone self-aware enough to notice and work through it.
That's more comparable to being in a long coma with some uncertain possibility of waking up from it, so perhaps it could be reframed along those lines; some people probably do specify that they should be taken off of life support if they are found comatose, but to choose to be kept alive is not socially disapproved of, as far as I know.
I'm curious what peoples opinions are of Jeff Hawkins' book 'on intelligence', and specifically the idea that 'intelligence is about prediction'. I'm about halfway through and I'm not convinced, so I was wondering if anybody could point me to further proofs of this or something, cheers
With regards to further reading, you can look at Hawkins' most recent (that I'm aware of) paper, "Towards a Mathematical Theory of Cortical Micro-Circuits". It's fairly technical, however, so I hope your math/neuroscience background is strong (I'm not knowledgeable enough to get much out of it).
You can also take a look at Hawkins' company Numenta, particularly the Technology Overview. Hierarchical Temporal Memory is the name of Hawkins' model of the neocortex, which IIRC he believes is responsible for some of the core prediction mechanisms in the human brain.
Edit: I almost forgot, this video of a talk he presented earlier this year may be the best introduction to HTM.
Intelligence-as-prediction/compression is a pretty familiar idea to LWers; there are a number of posts on them which you can find by searching, or you can try looking into the bibliographies and links in:
(I have no comments anent On Intelligence specifically. I remember it as being pretty vague as to specifics, and not very dense at all - unobjectionable.)
I was examining some of the arguments for the existence of god that separate beings into contingent (exist in some worlds but not all) and necessary (exist in all worlds). And it occurred to me that if the multiverse is indeed true, and its branches are all possible worlds, then we are all necessary beings, along with the multiverse, a part of whose structure we are.
Am I retreating into madness? :D
On the complete implausibility of the History Channel.
That is brilliant.
When thinking about my own rationality I have to identify problems. This means that I write statements like "I wait to long with making decisions, see X,Y". Now I worry that by stating this as a fact I somehow anchor it more deeply in my mind, and make myself act more in accordance with that statement. Is there actually any evidence for that? And if so, how do I avoid this problem?
I don't have any references on hand but cognitive behaviour therapy definitely frowns on people describing themselves using absolute statements like that.
I would advise reframing it in a way that makes it clear that your undesirable behaviour is something that you do some of the time or that you did in the past but try not to do now, to avoid reinforcing any underlying beliefs, for example, that you are the kind of person who is bad at making timely decisions. Even better would be reframing to include some kind of resolution about how you will go about making more timely decisions in the future, even if it's just a resolution to try to be more aware of when you're putting off a decision.
I just finished polishing off a top level post, but 5 new posts went up tonight - 3 of them substantial. So I ask, what should my strategy be? Should I just submit my post now because it doesn't really matter anyway? Or wait until the conversation dies down a bit so my post has a decent shot of being talked about? If I should wait, how long?
Definitely wait. My personal favorite timing is one day for each new (substantial) post.
The selective attention test (YouTube video link) is quite well-known. If you haven't heard of it, watch it now.
Now try the sequel (another YouTube video).
Even when you're expecting the tbevyyn, you still miss other things. Attention doesn't help in noticing what you aren't looking for.
More here.
How facts Backfire
There are a number of ways you can run with this article. It is interesting seeing it in the major press. It is also a little ironic that it is presenting facts to try and overturn an opinion (that information cannot be good for trying to overturn an opinion).
In terms of existential risk and thinking better in general. Obviously sometimes facts can overturn opinions but it makes me wonder, where is the organisation that uses non-fact based methods to sway opinion about existential risk. It would make sense if they were seperate, the fact based organisations (SIAI, FHI) need to be honest so that people that are fact-phillic to their message will trust them. I tend to ignore the fact-phobic (with respect to existential risk) people. But if it became sufficiently clear that foom style AI was possible, engineering society would become necessary.
The primary study in question is here. I haven't been able to locate online a copy of the study about self-esteem and corrections.
Interesting tidbit from the article:
I have long been thinking that the openly aggressive approach some display in promoting atheism / political ideas / whatever seems counterproductive, and more likely to make the other people not listen than it is to make them listen. These results seem to support that, though there have also been contradictory reports from people saying that the very aggressiveness was what made them actually think.
I believe aggressive debates are not about convincing the people you are debating with, that is likely to be impossible. Instead it is about convincing third parties who have not yet made up their mind. For that purpose it might be better to take an overly extreme position and to attack your opponents as much as possible.
Data point: After years of having the correct arguments in my hand, having indeed generated many of them myself, and simply refusing to update, Eliezer, Cectic, and Dan Meissler ganged up on me and got the job done.
I think Jesus and Mo helped too, now I think of it. That period's already getting murky in my head =/
Anyhow, point is, none of the above are what you'd call gentle.
ETA: I really do think humor is incredibly corrosive to religion. Years before this, the closest I ever came to deconversion was right after I read "Kissing Hank's Ass"
I'd guess aggression would have a polarising affect, depending upon ingroup or outgroup affiliation.
Aggression from an member of your own group is directed at something important that you ought to take note of. Aggression from an outsider is possibly directed at you so something to be ignored (if not credible) or countered.
We really need some students to do some tests upon, or a better way of searching psych research than google.
Presumably there's heterogeneity in people's reactions to aggressiveness and to soft approaches. Most likely a minority of people react better to aggressive approaches and most people react better to being fed opposing arguments in a sandwich with self-affirmation bread.
I think one of the reasons this self-esteem seeding works is that identifying your core values makes other issues look less important.
On the other hand, if you e.g. independently expressed that God is an important element of your identity and belief in him is one of your treasured values, then it may backfire and you will be even harder to move you away from that. (Of course I am not sure: I have never seen any scientific data on that. This is purely a wild guess.)
An akrasia fighting tool via Hacker News via Scientific American based on this paper. Read the Scientific American article for the short version. My super-short summary is that in self-talk asking "will I?" rather than telling yourself "I will" can be more effective at reaching success in goal-directed behavior. Looks like a useful tool to me.
If anyone is interested in seeing comments that are more representative of a mainstream response than what can be found from an Accelerating Future thread, Metafilter recently had a post on the NY Times article.
The comments aren't hilarious and insane, they're more of a casually dismissive nature. In this thread, cryonics is called an "afterlife scam", a pseudoscience, science fiction (technically true at this stage, but there's definitely an implied negative connotation on the "fiction" part, as if you shouldn't invest in cryonics because it's just nerd fantasy), and Pascal's Wager for atheists (The comparison is fallacious, and I thought the original Pascal's Wager was for atheists anyways...). There are a few criticisms that it's selfish, more than a few jokes sprinkled throughout the thread (as if the whole idea is silly), and even your classic death apologist.
All in all, a delightful cornucopia of irrationality.
ETA: I should probably point out that there were a few defenses. The most highly received defense of cryonics appears to be this post. There was also a comment from someone registered with Alcor that was very good, I thought. I attempted a couple of rebuttals, but I don't think they were well-received.
Also, check out this hilarious description of Robin Hanson from a commenter there:
I guess that the fatal problem with cryonics is all the freaking nerds interested in it.
The responses are interesting. I think this is the most helpful to my understanding:
I think this is the biggest PR hurdle for cryonics: it resembles (superficially) a transparent scam selling the hope of immortality for thousands of dollars.
um... why isn't it? There's a logically possible chance of revival someday, yeah. But with no way to estimate how likely it is, you're blowing money on mere possibility.
We don't normally make bets that depend on the future development of currently unknown technologies. We aren't all investing in cold fusion just because it would be really awesome if it panned out.
Sorry, I know this is a cryonics-friendly site, but somebody's got to say it.
There's always a way to estimate how likely something is, even if it's not a very accurate prediction. And mere used like seems kinda like a dark side word, if you'll excuse me.
Cryonics is theoretically possible, in that it isn't inconsistant with science/physics as we know it so far. I can't really delve into this part much, as I don't know anything about cold fusion and thus can't understand the comparison properly, but it sounds as if it might be inconsistant with physics?
Possibly relevant: Is Molecular Nanotechnology Scientific?
Also, the benefits of cryonics working if you invested in it would be greater than those of investing in cold fusion.
And this is just the impression I get, but it sounds like you're being a contrarian contrarian. I think it's your last sentence: it made me think of Lonely Dissent.
The unfair thing is, the more a community (like LW) values critical thinking, the more we feel free to criticize it. You get a much nicer reception criticizing a cryonicist's reasoning than criticizing a religious person's. It's easy to criticize people who tell you they don't mind. The result is that it's those who need constructive criticism the most who get the least. I'll admit I fall into this trap sometimes.
(belated reply:) You're right about the openness to criticism part, but there's another thing that goes with it: the communities that value critical thinking will respond to criticism by thinking more, and on occasion this will literally lead to the consensus reversing on the specific question. Without a strong commitment to rationality, however, frequently criticism is met by intransigence instead, even when it concerns the idea rather than the person.
Yes, people caught in anti-epistemological binds get less criticism - but they usually don't listen to criticism, either. Dealing with these is an unsolved problem.
You seem to be under the assumption that there is some minimum amount of evidence needed to give a probability. This is very common, but it is not the case. It's just as valid to say that the probability that an unknown statement X about which nothing is known is true is 0.5, as it is to say that the probability that a particular well-tested fair coin will come up heads is 0.5.
Probabilities based on lots of evidence are better than probabilities based on little evidence, of course; and in particular, probabilities based on little evidence can't be too close to 0 or 1. But not having enough evidence doesn't excuse you from having to estimate the probability of something before accepting or rejecting it.
I'm not disputing your point vs cryonics, but 0.5 will only rarely be the best possible estimate for the probability of X. It's not possible to think about a statement about which literally nothing is known (in the sense of information potentially available to you). At the very least you either know how you became aware of X or that X suddenly came to your mind without any apparent reason. If you can understand X you will know how complex X is. If you don't you will at least know that and can guess at the complexity based on the information density you expect for such a statement and its length.
Example: If you hear someone whom you don't specifically suspect to have a reason to make it up say that Joachim Korchinsky will marry Abigail Medeiros on August 24 that statement probably should be assigned a probability quite a bit higher than 0.5 even if you don't know anything about the people involved. If you generate the same statement yourself by picking names and a date at random you probably should assign a probability very close to 0.
Basically it comes down to this: Most possible positive statements that carry more than one bit of information are false, but most methods of encountering statements are biased towards true statements.
I wonder what the average probability of truth is for every spoken statement made by the human populace on your average day, for various message lengths. Anybody wanna try some Fermi calculations?
I'm guessing it's rather high, as most statements are trivial observations about sensory data, performative utterances, or first-glance approximations of one's preferences. I would also predict sentence accuracy drops off extremely quickly the more words the sentence has, and especially so the more syllables there are per word in that sentence.