Vladimir_M comments on Some Thoughts Are Too Dangerous For Brains to Think - Less Wrong

15 Post author: WrongBot 13 July 2010 04:44AM

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Comment author: Vladimir_M 16 July 2010 06:51:47PM *  17 points [-]

rhollerith_dot_com:

IMHO probably the worst effect of Western civilization's current overoptimism about democracy will be to inhibit experiments in forms of non-democratic government that would not have been possible before information technology (including the internet) became broadly disseminated.

I beg to differ. The worst effect is that throughout recent history, democratic ideas have regularly been foisted upon peoples and places where the introduction of democratic politics was a perfect recipe for utter disaster. I won't even try to quantify the total amount of carnage, destruction, and misery caused this way, but it's certainly well above the scale of those political mass crimes and atrocities that serve as the usual benchmarks of awfulness nowadays. Of course, all this normally gets explained away with frantic no-true-Scotsman responses whenever unpleasant questions are raised along these lines.

For full disclosure, I should add that I care particularly strongly about this because I was personally affected by one historical disaster that was brought about this way, namely the events in former Yugoslavia. Regardless of what one thinks about who bears what part of the blame for what happened there, one thing that's absolutely impossible to deny is that all the key players enjoyed democratic support confirmed by free elections.

Comment author: cousin_it 16 July 2010 07:31:58PM 9 points [-]

Seconded. I live in Russia, and if you compare the well-being of citizens in Putin's epoch against Yeltsin's, Putin wins so thoroughly that it's not even funny.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 19 July 2010 10:24:03AM 6 points [-]

You could attribute the difference to many correlated features, such as the year beginning with "20" instead of "19".

Comment author: LucasSloan 19 July 2010 07:36:44PM 2 points [-]

Also: The economy in Yeltsin's day was unusually bad, in deep recession due to pre-collapse economic problems, combined with the difficulties of switching over. In addition, today's economy benefits from a relatively high price for oil.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 19 July 2010 07:51:24PM 3 points [-]

That would be a less absurdist version of my point.

Comment author: LucasSloan 20 July 2010 01:17:31AM 0 points [-]

I assumed you meant that economic growth (in general) meant that the wellbeing of people is generally going to be greater when the year count is greater. I was providing specific reasons why the economy at the time would have been worse than regressing economic growth would suggest, other than political leadership.

Comment author: rhollerith_dot_com 16 July 2010 09:47:39PM *  3 points [-]

Yes, that is a very bad effect of the overoptimism about democracy.

Another example: even the vast majority of those (the non-whites) who could not vote in Rhodesia were significantly better off than they came to be after the Jimmy Carter administration forced the country (now called Zimbabwe) to give them the vote.