alexflint comments on Fight Zero-Sum Bias - Less Wrong

25 Post author: multifoliaterose 18 July 2010 05:57AM

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Comment author: daedalus2u 23 July 2010 12:51:10AM 1 point [-]

I understand what you are saying, but depression happens to be a not good example.

Depression is a necessary "feature" in the control system that physiology uses to modulate its hedonic state. During a near death physiological state, the state one can attain while running from a bear, where to be caught is certain death, physiology induces a state of euphoria. The near death physiological state has to be euphoric, so that organisms can willingly run themselves to death. This is the source of the euphoria of autoerotic asphyxiation (what killed David Carradine). That state has to be euphoric because all the “safeties” that prevent organisms from damaging themselves (pain, fatigue, extreme pain, extreme extreme pain) are turned off to allow even a very slim chance of escaping from a bear. If organisms could enter a euphoric state easily, they would, and would risk death uselessly. There must be an aversive state between “normal” and the euphoric near death state. I am pretty sure this aversive state is depression. I say that as someone who has been depressed most of my life, and has been on antidepressents just about half my life now, so I do understand depression.

It isn't that depression is something good, but that an organism that can support a depressive state has superior survival characteristics to one that cannot. So evolution has configured all organisms to have the equivalent of a depressive state.

I think the reason people imagine there is a “silver lining” to depression is because depressed people are easier to control and bullies feel less guilty when they bully someone into a depressed state because they fantasize there is a “silver lining” to the depression.

Comment author: alexflint 23 July 2010 04:51:07PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for taking the time to reply daedalus.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that depression does have an evolutionary basis as you say (it would actually be more surprising if it didn't have any such basis). From my perspective this wouldn't automatically make it worth preserving if we were in the hypothetical position to eliminate it. That something is evolved, or has an evolutionary basis, does not automatically decide its goodness or badness -- evolution has given us many characteristics that we would rather change were we in a position to do so.

Comment author: daedalus2u 24 July 2010 12:14:27AM 0 points [-]

alexflint, I agree with you. Just because something has evolved (or may have evolved) is not a reason to continue it.

I suspect that violence against women may have an evolved component (to reduce maternal death from cephalopelvic disproportion), but now cannot be justified for that because there are much better options (medical c-section). There may be other “features” of violence against pregnant women (epigenetic programming of the fetus to be more violent via the 'cycle of violence”), but I think the downsides of violence against women greatly outweighs any positives that may have existed during evolutionary time.

I think if we could eliminate violence against women we should do it. What ever positives there might be for individuals, for society it is a net negative (in my opinion).

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 24 July 2010 08:00:24AM 0 points [-]

I'm not sure what your line of thought is about violence against women. Induced miscarriage?

Comment author: daedalus2u 24 July 2010 02:43:32PM 0 points [-]

Induced miscarriage, preterm birth, low birth weight. There is evidence that all of these are associated with violence against women, and also violence against women by her mate increases while she is pregnant. I looked and was unable to find any data suggesting any non-human males commit violence againt a female while she is pregnant with his fetus.

Humans are unique among mammals for the degree of placental difficulties, birth dificulties and cephalopelvic disproportion they have.