Matt_Simpson comments on Schools Proliferating Without Evidence - Less Wrong

40 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 15 March 2009 06:43AM

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Comment author: Matt_Simpson 15 March 2009 09:46:40PM 6 points [-]

Another example of schools proliferating without evidence: philosophy. Consider all the different schools of ethics which have sprung up: there's utilitarian ethics, deontological ethics, and virtue ethics, with vast numbers of sub categorizations under each school.

Philosophers are more susceptible to this failure mode because on many important philosophical questions, a standard if not unanimous approach is argue that the question cannot be answered by evidence. Modal logicians trying to do metaphysics, for example.

Comment author: thomblake 16 March 2009 02:47:46PM 8 points [-]

Consider all the different schools of ethics which have sprung up

A few thousand years, and we've managed to come up with about three possible answers to the question 'what, in general, does one have most reason to do or want?'. Is your complaint that this is too many to have considered, or that the question isn't completely settled yet?

a standard if not unanimous approach is argue that the question cannot be answered by evidence

I know many philosophers who would be surprised by this assertion - I was under the impression the Empiricists pretty much won. In Ethics, particularly, moral observation is now a standard piece of the toolkit.

Of course, the grain of truth here is that due to the fractured nature of philosophical schools, there are large communities of philosophers who don't realize other large communities of philosophers even exist. In a sense, nobody knows what philosophy doesn't know, even philosophers.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 16 March 2009 04:25:02PM 3 points [-]

Is your complaint that this is too many to have considered, or that the question isn't completely settled yet?

My complaint is that little progress has been made over many years. There are three general ways to answer the question, sure. But each general answer is really an umbrella term covering a large number of answers. Some sects are similar to others, but they are still different sects.

I know many philosophers who would be surprised by this assertion - I was under the impression the Empiricists pretty much won. In Ethics, particularly, moral observation is now a standard piece of the toolkit.

In retrospect, my experience is probably colored by the small school I go to. From what I can tell, there are still rather large, if minority, groups of philosophers who disagree with the settled answer on many questions.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 25 March 2013 07:50:40PM *  3 points [-]

My obligatory Edwin Jaynes quote on philosophers, quoting a colleague

"Philosophers are free to do whatever they please, because they don't have to do anything right."

Probability Theory http://books.google.com/books?id=tTN4HuUNXjgC&pg=PA144

Comment author: Annoyance 16 March 2009 01:37:05AM -2 points [-]

"Philosophers are more susceptible to this failure mode because on many important philosophical questions, a standard if not unanimous approach is argue that the question cannot be answered by evidence."

No, philosophers are more susceptible because most of them can't recognize that "cannot be answered by evidence" means an answer can't be obtained at all.

To such individuals, reason is merely a passing fad coequal with every other way of asserting something, a fleeting hiccup that they're far too fashionable to consider important.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 16 March 2009 04:05:05AM -1 points [-]

No, philosophers are more susceptible because most of them can't recognize that "cannot be answered by evidence" means an answer can't be obtained at all.

I would say both. Some things that philosophers think can't be answered by evidence are in fact answered by evidence, such as whether 2 + 2 = 4.

Comment author: whowhowho 25 March 2013 08:44:24PM -1 points [-]

Is any of that avoidable?

Comment author: shminux 25 March 2013 09:25:14PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: whowhowho 25 March 2013 09:33:55PM -1 points [-]

Please provide proof. Please don't point, yet again, to the highly debatable "solution" to FW.

Comment author: shminux 25 March 2013 11:58:21PM 0 points [-]

What kind of proof would you accept?

Comment deleted 26 March 2013 07:50:34PM *  [-]
Comment author: shminux 26 March 2013 09:22:44PM *  7 points [-]

In my limited experience, the "hard problems" in philosophy are the problems which are either poorly defined and so people keep arguing about definitions without admitting it, or poorly analyzed, so people keep mixing decision theory with cognitive science, for example. While the traditional philosophy is good at asking (meta-)questions and noticing broad similarities, it is nearly useless at solving them. When a philosopher tries to honestly analyze a deep question, it usually stops being philosophy and becomes logic, linguistics, decision theory, computer science, physics or something else that qualifies as science. Hence Pearl and Kahneman and Russell, some Wittgenstein, Popper...

Comment author: [deleted] 27 March 2013 11:10:33AM 0 points [-]

In my limited experience, the "hard problems" in philosophy are the problems which are either poorly defined and so people keep arguing about definitions without admitting it, or poorly analyzed, so people keep mixing decision theory with cognitive science, for example.

See also how many of the comments in this thread amounted to “if by sound you mean ‘acoustic wave’ it does, if you mean ‘auditory sensation’ it doesn't”.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 18 April 2015 10:03:39AM -2 points [-]

There's little evidence of anything else being better at solving them, so that is largely nirvana fallacy,

Comment author: dxu 18 April 2015 07:13:16PM 3 points [-]

Wait, what? There's little evidence of anything better than philosophy at solving problems? How about physics, cognitive science, computer science, mathematics, etc.?

Comment author: Epictetus 19 April 2015 02:40:14AM 2 points [-]

When a branch of philosophy becomes useful at solving problems, people give it a new name and no longer consider it part of philosophy.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 18 April 2015 07:20:50PM *  0 points [-]

Them="the hard problems in philosophy", not "problems"

How about physics, cognitive science, computer science, mathematics, etc.?

How about philosophy of physics, philosophy of mathematics? Why do they exist?