Open Thread, August 2010

4 Post author: NancyLebovitz 01 August 2010 01:27PM

This thread is for the discussion of Less Wrong topics that have not appeared in recent posts. If a discussion gets unwieldy, celebrate by turning it into a top-level post.

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Comment author: [deleted] 30 August 2010 11:41:25PM *  5 points [-]

PZ Meyers' comments on Kurzweil generated some controversy here recently on LW--see here. Apparently PZ doesn't agree with some of Kurzweil's assumptions about the human mind. But that's besides the point--what I want want to discuss is this: according to another blog, Kurzweil has been selling bogus nutritional supplements. What does everyone think of this?

Comment author: jimrandomh 30 August 2010 11:48:21PM 2 points [-]

I would like a better source than a blog comment for the claim that Kurzweil has been selling bogus nutritional supplements. The obvious alternative possibility is that someone else, with less of a reputation to worry about, attached Kurzweil's name to their product without his knowledge.

Comment author: [deleted] 31 August 2010 12:05:34AM 3 points [-]

Ok, I've found some better sources. See the first three links.

Comment author: jimrandomh 31 August 2010 06:01:30AM 5 points [-]

I would have preferred a more specific link than that, to save me the time of doing a detailed investigation of Kurzweil's company myself. But I ended up doing one anyways, so here are the results.

That "Ray and Terry's Longevity Products" company's front page screams low-credibility. It displays three things: an ad for a book, which I can't judge as I don't have a copy, an ad for snack bars, and a news box. Neutral, silly, and, ah, something amenable to a quality test!

The current top headline in their Healthy Headlines box looked to me like an obvious falsehood ("Dirty Electricity May Cause Type 3 Diabetes"), and on a topic important to me, so I followed it up. It links to a blog I don't recognize, which dug it out of a two year old study, which I found on PubMed. And I personally verified that the study was wrong - by the most generous interpretation, assuming no placebo effect or publication bias (both of which were obviously present), the study contains exactly 4 bits of evidence (4 case studies in which the observed outcome had a 50% chance of happening assuming the null hypothesis, and a 100% chance of happening assuming the conclusion). A review article confirmed that it was flawed.

That said, he probably just figured the news box was unimportant and delegated the job to someone who wasn't smart enough to keep the lies out. But it means I can't take anything else on the site seriously without a very time-consuming investigation, which is bad enough.

The bit about Kurzweil taking 250 nutritional supplements per day jumps out, too, since it's an obviously wrong thing to do; the risks associated with taking a supplement (adverse reaction, contamination, mislabeling) scale linearly with the number taken, while the upside has diminishing returns. You take the most valuable thing first, then the second-most, by the time you get to the 250th thing it's a duplicate or worthless. Which leads me to believe that he just fudged the number, by counting things that are properly considered duplicates like split doses of the same thing.

Comment author: Mass_Driver 31 August 2010 12:39:59AM 2 points [-]

It might be useful to have a short list of English words that indicate logical relationships or concepts often used in debates and arguments, so as to enable people who are arguing about controversial topics to speak more precisely.

Has anyone encountered such a list? Does anyone know of previous attempts to create such lists?

Comment author: [deleted] 28 August 2010 03:35:04PM *  2 points [-]

Followup to: Making Beliefs Pay Rent in Anticipated Experiences

In the comments section of Making Beliefs Pay Rent, Eliezer wrote:

I follow a correspondence theory of truth. I am also a Bayesian and a believer in Occam's Razor. If a belief has no empirical consequences then it could receive no Bayesian confirmation and could not rise to my subjective attention. In principle there are many true beliefs for which I have no evidence, but in practice I can never know what these true beliefs are, or even focus on them enough to think them explicitly, because they are so vastly outnumbered by false beliefs for which I can find no evidence.

If I am interpreting this correctly, Eliezer is saying that there is a nearly infinite space of unfalsifiable hypotheses, and so our priors for each individual hypothesis should be very close to zero. I agree with this statement, but I think it raises a philosophical problem: doesn't this same reasoning apply to any factual question? Given a set of data D, there must be an nearly infinite space of hypotheses that (a) explain D and (b) make predictions (fulfilling the criteria discussed in Making Beliefs Pay Rent). Though Occam's Razor can help us to weed out a large number of these possible hypotheses, a mind-bogglingly large number would still remain, forcing us to have a low prior for each individual hypothesis. (In philosophy of science, this is known as "underdetermination.") Or is there a flaw in my reasoning somewhere?

Comment author: PaulAlmond 28 August 2010 05:37:53PM 1 point [-]

Surely, this is dealt with by considering the amount of information in the hypothesis? If we consider each hypothesis that can be represented with 1,000 bits of information, there will only be a maximum of 2^1,000 such hypotheses, and if we consider each hypothesis that can be represented with n bits of information, there will only be a maximum of 2^n - and that is before we even start eliminating hypotheses that are inconsistent with what we already know. If we favor hypotheses with less information content, then we end up with a small number of hypotheses that can be taken reasonably seriously, and the remainder being unlikely - and progressively more unlikely as n increases, so that when n is sufficiently large, we can, practically, dismiss any hypotheses.

Comment author: [deleted] 28 August 2010 09:23:10PM 1 point [-]

I agree with most of that, but why favor less information content? Though I may not fully understand the math, this recent post by cousin it seems to be saying that priors should not always depend on Kolmogorov complexity.

And, even if we do decide to favor less information content, how much emphasis should we place on it?

Comment author: PaulAlmond 28 August 2010 10:06:29PM 1 point [-]

In general, I would think that the more information is in a theory, the more specific it is, and the more specific it is, the smaller is the proportion of possible worlds which happen to comply with it.

Regarding how much emphasis we should place on it: I woud say "a lot" but there are complications. Theories aren't used in isolation, but tend to provide a kind of informally put together world view, and then there is the issue of degree of matching.

Comment author: Perplexed 28 August 2010 10:16:48PM 4 points [-]

Which theory has more information?

  • All crows are black
  • All crows are black except <270 pages specifying the exceptions>
Comment author: PaulAlmond 28 August 2010 10:20:07PM 1 point [-]

I didn't say you ignored previous correspondence with reality, though.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 August 2010 01:09:42AM 1 point [-]

That isn't Perplexed's point. Let's say that as of this moment all crows that have been observed are black, so both of his hypotheses fit the data. Why should "all crows are black" be assigned a higher prior than "All crows are black except <270 pages specifying the exceptions>"? Based on cousin_it's post, I don't see any reason to do that.

Comment author: Snowyowl 25 August 2010 06:46:44PM 2 points [-]

Here's a thought experiment that's been confusing me for a long time, and I have no idea whether it is even possible to resolve the issues it raises. It assumes that a reality which was entirely simulated on a computer is indistinguishable from the "real" one, at least until some external force alters it. So... the question is, assuming that such a program exists, what happens to the simulated universe when it is executed?

In accordance with the arguments that Pavirta gives below me, redundant computation is not the same as additional computation. Executing the same program twice (with the same inputs each time) is equivalent to executing it once, which is equivalent to executing it five times, ten times, or a million. You are just simulating the same universe over and over, not a different one each time.

But is running the simulation once equivalent to running it ZERO times?

The obvious answer seems to be "no", but bear with me here. There is nothing special about the quarks and leptons that make up a physical computer. If you could make a Turing machine out of light, or more exotic matter, you would still be able to execute the same program on it. And if you could make such a computer in any other universe (whatever that might mean), you would still be able to run the program on it. But in such considerations, the computer used is immaterial. A physical computer is not a perfect Turing machine - it has finite memory space and is vulnerable to physical defects which introduce errors into the program. What matters is the program itself, which exists regardless of the computer it is on. A program is a Platonic ideal, a mathematical object which cannot exist in this universe. We can make a representation of that program on a computer, but the representation is not perfect, and it is not the program itself. In the same way, a perfect equilateral triangle cannot actually be constructed in this universe; even if you use materials whose length is measured down to the atom, its sides will not be perfectly straight and its angles will not be perfectly equal. More importantly, if you then alter the representation to make one of the angles bigger, it does not change the fact that equilateral triangles have 60° angles, it simply makes your representation less accurate. In the same way, executing a program on a computer will not alter the program itself. If there are conscious beings simulated on your computer, they existed before you ran the program, and they will exist even if you unplug the computer and throw it into a hole - because what you have in your computer is not the conscious beings, but a representation of them. And they will still exist even if you never run the program, or even if it never occurs to anyone on Earth that such a program could be made.

The problem is, this same argument could be used to justify the existence of literally everything, everywhere. So we are left with several possible conclusions: (1)Everything is "real" in some universe, and we have no way of ever finding such universes. This cannot ever be proved or falsified, and also leads to problems with the definition of "everything" and "real". (2)The initial premise is false, and only physical objects are real: simulations, thoughts and constructs are not. I think there is a philosophical school of thought that believes this to be true, though I have no idea what its name is. Regardless, there are still a lot of holes in this answer. (3)I have made a logical mistake somewhere, or I am operating from an incorrect definition of "real". It happens.

It is also worth pointing out that both (1) and (2) invalidate every ethical truth in the book, since in (1) there is always a universe in which I just caused the death of a trillion people, and in (2) there is no such thing as "ethics" - ideas aren't real, and that includes philosophical ideas.

Anyway, just bear this in mind when you think about a universe being simulated on a computer.

Comment author: Emile 25 August 2010 07:17:53PM *  2 points [-]

(1)Everything is "real" in some universe, and we have no way of ever finding such universes. This cannot ever be proved or falsified, and also leads to problems with the definition of "everything" and "real".

That's pretty much Tegmark's Multiverse, which seems pretty popular around here (I think it makes a lot of sense).

Comment author: ata 25 August 2010 07:38:01PM *  1 point [-]

Indeed. I have a post making similar arguments, though I still haven't been able to resolve the ethical and anthropic problems it raises in any satisfactory way. At this point I've backtracked from the confidence I held when I wrote that post; what I'm still willing to say is that we're probably on the right track thinking of "Why does anything exist?" as a wrong question and thinking of reality as indexical (i.e. the true referent of the category "real" is the set of things instantiated by this universe; it is a category error to talk about other universes being real or not real), but the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis still leaves much to be confused about.

Comment author: Perplexed 25 August 2010 08:46:18PM 4 points [-]

My own view is that (ignoring simulations for the time being) MWI ideas have no conflict with our usual ethical intuitions and reasonings. Yes, it is the case that when I choose between evil action A and good action B, there will be two branches of the universe - one in which I choose A and one in which I choose B. This will be the case regardless of which choice I make. But this does not make my choice morally insignificant, because I split too, along with the rest of the universe. The version of me that chose evil act A will have to live thereafter with the consequences of that choice. And the version of me that chose B must live with quite different consequences.

What, more than that, could a believer in the moral significance of actions want of his universe?

The situation with respect to simulations is a bit trickier. Suppose I am deciding whether to (A) pull the plug on a simulation which contains millions of sentient (simulated) beings, or (B) allow the simulation to continue. So, I choose, and the universe branches. If I chose A, I must live with the consequences. I don't have that simulation to kick around any more. But, if I were to worry about all the simulated lives that I have so ruthlessly terminated, I can easily reassure myself that I have only terminated a redundant copy of those lives. The (now) master copy of the simulation plays on, over in that parallel universe where I chose B.

Is it wrong to create a simulation and then torture the inhabitants? Well, that is an ethical question, whereas this is a meta-ethical analysis. But the meta-ethical answer to that ethical question is that if you torture simulated beings, then you must live with the consequences of that.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 August 2010 09:31:35PM 1 point [-]

Yes, MWI ideas have no conflict with usual ethical intuitions. And they also help you make better sense of those intuitions. Counterfactuals really do exist, for example; they're not just some hypothetical that is in point of fact physically impossible.

Comment author: ata 25 August 2010 08:58:51PM 1 point [-]

That's not how MWI works, unless human brains have a quantum randomness source that they use to make decisions (which does not appear to be the case).

Comment author: Perplexed 25 August 2010 09:25:13PM 2 points [-]

I'm not sure it matters to the analysis. Whether we have a Tegmark multiverse, or Everett MWI with some decisions depending on quantum randomness and others classically determined, or whether the multiple worlds are purely subjective fictions created to have a model of Bayesianism; regardless of what you think is a possible reduction of "possibly"; it is still the case that you have to live in the reality which you helped to create by way of your past actions.

Comment author: Perplexed 25 August 2010 08:54:22PM 1 point [-]

Is it wrong to create a simulation and then torture the inhabitants? Well, that is an ethical question, whereas this is a meta-ethical analysis. But the meta-ethical answer to that ethical question is that if you torture simulated beings, then you must live with the consequences of that.

I should add that it is impossible to erase your sin by deciding to terminate the simulation, so as to "euthanize" the victims of your torture. Because there is always a branch where you don't so decide, and the victims of your torture live on.

Comment author: Pavitra 25 August 2010 02:11:16AM *  3 points [-]

There's an idea I've seen around here on occasion to the effect that creating and then killing people is bad, so that for example you should be careful that when modeling human behavior your models don't become people in their own right.

I think this is bunk. Consider the following:

--

Suppose you have an uploaded human, and fork the process. If I understand the meme correctly, this creates an additional person, such that killing the second process counts as murder.

Does this still hold if the two processes are not made to diverge; that is, if they are deterministic (or use the same pseudorandom seed) and are never given differing inputs?

Suppose that instead of forking the process in software, we constructed an additional identical computer, set it on the table next to the first one, and copied the program state over. Suppose further that the computers were cued up to each other so that they were not only performing the same computation, but executing the steps at the same time as each other. (We won't readjust the sync on an ongoing basis; it's just part of the initial conditions, and the deterministic nature of the algorithm ensures that they stay in step after that.)

Suppose that the computers were not electronic, but insanely complex mechanical arrays of gears and pulleys performing the same computation -- emulating the electronic computers at reduced speed, perhaps. Let us further specify that the computers occupy one fewer spatial dimension than the space they're embedded in, such as flat computers in 3-space, and that the computers are pressed flush up against each other, corresponding gears moving together in unison.

What if the corresponding parts (which must be staying in synch with each other anyway) are superglued together? What if we simply build a single computer twice as thick? Do we still have two people?

--

No, of course not. And, on reflection, it's obvious that we never did: redundant computation is not additional computation.

So what if we cause the ems to diverge slightly? Let us stipulate that we give them some trivial differences, such as the millisecond timing of when they receive their emails. If they are not actively trying to diverge, I anticipate that this would not have much difference to them in the long term -- the ems would still be, for the most part, the same person. Do we have two distinct people, or two mostly redundant people -- perhaps one and a tiny fraction, on aggregate? I think a lot of people will be tempted to answer that we have two.

But consider, for a moment, if we were not talking about people but -- say -- works of literature. Two very similar stories, even if by a raw diff they share almost no words, are of not much more value than only one of them.

The attitude I've seen seems to treat people as a special case -- as a separate magisterium.

--

I wish to assert that this value system is best modeled as a belief in souls. Not immortal souls with an afterlife, you understand, but mortal souls, that are created and destroyed. And the world simply does not work that way.

If you really believed that, you'd try to cause global thermonuclear war, in order to prevent the birth of billions or more of people who will inevitably be killed. It might take the heat death of the universe, but they will die.

Comment author: ata 25 August 2010 03:09:19AM *  2 points [-]

You make good points. I do think that multiple independent identical copies have the same moral status as one. Anything else is going to lead to absurdities like those you mentioned, like the idea of cutting a mechanical computer in half and doubling its moral worth.

I have for a while had a feeling that the moral value of a being's existence has something to do with the amount of unique information generated by its mind, resulting from its inner emotional and intellectual experience. (Where "has something to do with" = it's somewhere in the formula, but not the whole formula.) If you have 100 identical copies of a mind, and you delete 99 of them, you have not lost any information. If you have two slightly divergent copies of a mind, and you delete one of them, then that's bad, but only as bad as destroying whatever information exists in it and not the other copy. Abortion doesn't seem to be a bad thing (apart from any pain caused; that should still be minimized) because a fetus's brain contains almost no information not compressible to its DNA and environmental noise, neither of which seems to be morally valuable. Similar with animals; it appears many animals have some inner emotional and intellectual experience (to varying degrees), so I consider deleting animal minds and causing them pain to have terminal negative value, but not nearly as great as doing the same to humans. (I also suspect that a being's value has something to do with the degree to which its mind's unique information is entangled with and modeled (in lower resolution) by other minds, à la I Am A Strange Loop.)

Comment author: [deleted] 24 August 2010 04:06:24AM 3 points [-]

Some hobby Bayesianism. A typical challenge for a rationalist is that there is some claim X to be evaluated, it seems preposterous, but many people believe it. How should you take account of this when considering how likely X is to be true? I'm going to propose a mathematical model of this situation and discuss two of it's features.

This is based on a continuing discussion with Unknowns, who I think disagrees with what I'm going to present, or with its relevance to the "typical challenge."

Summary: If you learn that a preposterous hypothesis X is believed by many people, you should not correct your prior probability P(X) by a factor larger than the reciprocal of P(Y), your prior probability for the hypothesis Y = "X is believed by many people." One can deduce an estimate of P(Y) from an estimate of the quantity "if I already knew that at least n people believed X, how likely it would be that n+1 people believed X" as a function of n. It is not clear how useful this method of estimating P(Y) is.

The right way to unpack "X seems preposterous, but many believe it" mathematically is as follows. We have a very low prior probability P(X), and then we have new evidence Y = "many people believe X". The problem is to evaluate P(X|Y).

One way to phrase the typical challenge is "How much larger than P(X) should P(X|Y) be?" In other words, how large is the ratio P(X|Y)/P(X)? Bayes formula immediately says something interesting about this:

P(X|Y)/P(X) = P(Y|X)/P(Y)

Moreover, since P(Y|X) < 1, the right-hand side of that equation is less than 1/P(Y). My interpretation of this: if you want to know how seriously to take the fact that many people believe something, you should consider how likely you find it that many people would believe it absent any evidence. Or a little more precisely, how likely you find it that many people would believe it if the amount of evidence available to them was unknown to you. You should not correct your prior for X by more than the reciprocal of this probability.

Comment: how much less than 1 P(Y|X) is depends on the nature of X. For instance, if X is the claim "the Riemann hypothesis is false" then it is unclear to me how to estimate P(Y|X), but (since it is conceivable to me that RH is false, but still it is widely believed) it might be quite small. If X is an everyday claim like "it's a full moon tomorrow", or a spectacular claim like "Jesus rose from the dead", it seems like P(Y|X) is very close to 1. So sometimes 1/P(Y) is a good approximation to P(X|Y)/P(X), but maybe sometimes it is a big overestimation.

What about P(Y)? Is there a way to estimate it, or at least approach its estimation? Let's give ourselves a little more to work with, by quantifying "many people" in "many people believe X". Let Y(n) be the assertion "at least n people believe X." Note that this model doesn't specify what "believe" means -- in particular it does not specify how strongly n people believe X, nor how smart or expert those n people are, nor where in the world they are located... if there is a serious weakness in this model it might be found here.

Another application of Bayes theorem gives us

P(Y(n+1))/P(Y(n)) = P(Y(n+1)|Y(n))

(Since P(Y(n)|Y(n+1)) = 1, i.e. if we know n+1 people believe X, then of course n people believe X). Squinting a little, this gives us a formula for the derivative of the logarithm of P(Y(n)). Yudkowsky has suggested naming the log of a probability an "absurdity," let's write A(Y(n)) for the absurdity of Y(n).

d/dn A(Y(n)) = A(Y(n+1)|Y(n))

So up to an additive constant A(Y(n)) is the integral from 1 to n of A(Y(m+1)|Y(m))dm. So an ansatz for P(Y(n+1)|Y(n)) = exp(A(Y(n+1)|Y(n)) will allow us to say something about P(Y(n)), up to a multiplicative constant.

The shape of P(Y(n+1)|Y(n)) seems like it could have a lot to do with what kind of statement X is, but there is one thing that seems likely to be true no matter what X is: if N is the total population of the world and n/N is close to zero, then P(Y(n+1)|Y(n)) is also close to zero, and if n/N is close to one then P(Y(n+1)|Y(n)) is also close to one. I might work out an example ansatz like this in a future comment, if this one stands up to scrutiny.

Comment author: wedrifid 24 August 2010 03:15:38AM 2 points [-]

Eliezer has written a post (ages ago) which discussed a bias when it comes to contributions to charities. Fragments that I can recall include considering the motivation for participating in altruistic efforts in a tribal situation, where having your opinion taking seriously is half the point of participation. This is in contrast to donating 'just because you want thing X to happen'. There is a preference to 'start your own effort, do it yourself' even when that would be less efficient than donating to an existing charity.

I am unable to find the post in question - I think it is distinct from 'the unit of caring'. It would be much appreciated if someone who knows the right keywords could throw me a link!

Comment author: WrongBot 25 August 2010 12:33:34AM 4 points [-]
Comment author: NQbass7 20 August 2010 07:04:52PM 2 points [-]

Alright, I've lost track of the bookmark and my google-fu is not strong enough with the few bits and pieces I remember. I remember seeing a link to a story in a lesswrong article. The story was about a group of scientists who figured out how to scan a brain, so they did it to one of them, and then he wakes up in a strange place and then has a series of experiences/dreams which recount history leading up to where he currently is, including a civilization of uploads, and he's currently living with the last humans around... something like that. Can anybody help me out? Online story, 20 something chapters I think... this is driving me nuts.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 20 August 2010 07:08:53PM 2 points [-]
Comment author: JRMayne 20 August 2010 03:15:29AM 1 point [-]

Not that many will care, but I should get a brief appearance on Dateline NBC Friday, Aug. 20, at 10 p.m. Eastern/Pacific. A case I prosecuted is getting the Dateline treatment.

Elderly atheist farmer dead; his friend the popular preacher's the suspect.

--JRM

Comment author: ABranco 19 August 2010 03:08:48AM 2 points [-]

The visual guide to a PhD: http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/

Nice map–territory perspective.

Comment author: Craig_Heldreth 15 August 2010 01:09:11PM *  2 points [-]

John Baez This Week's Finds in Mathematical Physics has its 300th and last entry. He is moving to wordpress and Azimuth. He states he wants to concentrate on futures, and has upcoming interviews with:

Tim Palmer on climate modeling and predictability, Thomas Fischbacher on sustainability and permaculture, and Eliezer Yudkowsky on artificial intelligence and the art of rationality. A Google search returns no matches for Fischbacher + site:lesswrong.com and no hits for Palmer +.

That link to Fischbacher that Baez gives has a presentation on cognitive distortions and public policy which I found quite good.

Comment author: [deleted] 11 August 2010 06:38:26AM *  3 points [-]

Where should the line be drawn regarding the status of animals as moral objects/entities? E.G Do you think it is ethical to boil lobsters alive? It seems to me there is a full spectrum of possible answers: at one extreme only humans are valued, or only primates, only mammals, only veterbrates, or at the other extreme, any organism with even a rudimentary nervous system (or any computational, digital isomorphism thereof), could be seen as a moral object/entity.

Now this is not necessarily a binary distinction, if shrimp have intrinsic moral value it does not follow that they must have a equal value to humans or other 'higher' animals. As I see it, there are two possibilities; either we come to a point where the moral value drops to zero, or else we decide that entities approach zero to some arbitrary limit: e.g. a c. elegans roundworm with its 300 neurons might have a 'hedonic coefficient' of 3x10^-9. I personally favor the former, the latter just seems absurd to me, but I am open to arguments or any comments/criticisms.

Comment author: GrateGoo 25 August 2010 05:59:56AM *  1 point [-]

Suppose sentient beings have intrinsic value in proportion to how intensely they can experience happiness and suffering. Then the value of invertebrates and many non-mammal vertebrates is hard to tell, while any mammal is likely to have almost as much intrinsic value as a human being, some possibly even more. But that's just the intrinsic value. Humans have a tremendously greater instrumental value than any non-human animal, since humans can create superintelligence that can, with time, save tremendous amounts of civilisations in other parts of the universe from suffering (yes, they are sparse, but with time our superintelligence will find more and more or them, in theory ultimately infinitely many).

The instrumental value of most humans is enormously higher than the intrinsic value of the same persons - given that they do sufficiently good things.

Comment author: FAWS 16 August 2010 04:56:31PM 1 point [-]

As I see it, there are two possibilities; either we come to a point where the moral value drops to zero, or else we decide that entities approach zero to some arbitrary limit: e.g. a c. elegans roundworm with its 300 neurons might have a 'hedonic coefficient' of 3x10^-9. I personally favor the former, the latter just seems absurd to me, but I am open to arguments or any comments/criticisms.

Less absurd than that some organism is infinitely more valuable than its sibling that differs in lacking a single mutation (in the case of the first organism of a particular species to have evolved "high" enough to have minimal moral value)?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 09 August 2010 04:50:23PM 2 points [-]

I've written a post for consolidating book recommendations, and the links don't have hidden urls. These are links which were cut and pasted from a comment-- the formatting worked there.

Posting (including to my drafts) mysteriously doubles the spaces between the words in one of my link texts, but not the others. I tried taking that link out in case it was making the whole thing weird, but it didn't help.

I've tried using the pop-up menu for links that's available for writing posts, but that didn't change the results.

What might be wrong with the formatting?

Comment author: Alicorn 09 August 2010 07:27:51PM 1 point [-]

I don't know what's wrong, but a peek at the raw HTML editor (there's a button for it in the toolbar) might give a hint.

Comment author: Johnicholas 09 August 2010 11:08:26AM 3 points [-]

Say a "catalytic pattern" is something like scaffolding, an entity that makes it easier to create (or otherwise obtain) another entity. An "autocatalytic pattern" is a sort of circular version of that, where the existence of an instance of the pattern acts as scaffolding for creating or otherwise obtaining another entity.

Autocatalysis is normally mentioned in the "origin of life" scientific field, but it also applies to cultural ratchets. An autocatalytic social structure will catalyze a few more instances of itself (frequently not expanding without end - rather, a niche is filled), and then the population has some redundancy and recoverability, acting as a ratchet.

For example, driving on the right(left) in one region catalyzes driving on the right(left) in an adjacent region.

Designing circular or self-applicable entities is kindof tricky, but it's not as tricky as it might be - often, theres an attraction basin around a hypothesized circular entity, where X catalyzes Y which is very similar to X, and Y catalyzes Z which is very similar to Y, and so focusing your search sufficiently, and then iterating or iterating-and-tweaking can often get the last, trickiest steps.

Douglas Hofstadter catalyzed the creation (by Lee Sallows) of a "Pangram Machine" that exploits this attraction basin to create a self-describing sentence that starts "This Pangram contains four as, [...]" - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangram

Has there been any work on measuring, studying attraction basins around autocatalytic entities?

Comment author: gwern 09 August 2010 05:47:04AM 4 points [-]

"The differences are dramatic. After tracking thousands of civil servants for decades, Marmot was able to demonstrate that between the ages of 40 and 64, workers at the bottom of the hierarchy had a mortality rate four times higher than that of people at the top. Even after accounting for genetic risks and behaviors like smoking and binge drinking, civil servants at the bottom of the pecking order still had nearly double the mortality rate of those at the top."

"Under Pressure: The Search for a Stress Vaccine" http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/07/ff_stress_cure/all/1

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 09 August 2010 10:06:49AM 1 point [-]

It was interesting that most of the commenters were opposed to the idea of a stress vaccine, though their reasons didn't seem very good.

I'm wondering whether the vaccine would mean that people would be more inclined to accept low status (it's less painful) or less inclined to accept low status (more energy, less pessimism.)

I also wonder how much of the stress from low status is from objectively worse conditions (less benign stimulus, worse schedules, more noise, etc.) as distinct from less control, and whether there's a physical basis for the inclination to crank up stress on subordinates.

Comment author: gwern 10 August 2010 04:50:10AM 3 points [-]

their reasons didn't seem very good.

Wired has unusually crappy commentators; YouTube quality. I wouldn't put much stock in their reactions.

I'm wondering whether the vaccine would mean that people would be more inclined to accept low status (it's less painful) or less inclined to accept low status (more energy, less pessimism.)

/blatant speculation

Stress response evolved for fight-or-flight - baboons and chimps fight nasty. Not for thinking or health. Reduce that, and like mindfulness meditation, one can think better and solve one's problems better.

is from objectively worse conditions

IIRC, the description made it sound like the study controlled for conditions - comparing clerical work with controlling bosses to clerical work sans controlling bosses.

Comment author: gwern 09 August 2010 07:03:19AM 2 points [-]

With regard to the recent proof of P!=NP: http://predictionbook.com/predictions/1588

Comment author: ciphergoth 09 August 2010 07:48:57AM 1 point [-]

With no time limit, how can you ever win that one?

Comment author: gwern 09 August 2010 07:51:18AM 1 point [-]

No time limit?

Created by gwern about 1 hour ago; known in over 5 years

Might as well create a prediction for this; I assume 5 years ought to be enough time for the proof, if correct, to be verified & accepted, or to be refuted.

Comment author: XiXiDu 08 August 2010 07:38:22PM 13 points [-]

LW database download?

I was wondering if it would be a good idea to offer a download of LW or at least the sequences and Wiki. In the manner that Wikipedia is providing it.

The idea behind it is to have a redundant backup in case of some catastrophe, for example if the same happens to EY that happened to John C. Wright. It could also provide the option to read LW offline.

Comment author: Soki 11 August 2010 06:59:33PM 1 point [-]

I support this idea.

But what about copyright issues? What if posts and comments are owned by their writer?

Comment author: ciphergoth 08 August 2010 09:11:41PM 13 points [-]

That's incredibly sad.

Every so often, people derisively say to me "Oh, and you assume you'd never convert to religion then?" I always reply "I absolutely do not assume that, it might happen to me; no-one is immune to mental illness."

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 August 2010 09:22:40PM 12 points [-]

Tricycle has the data. Also if an event of JCW magnitude happened to me I'm pretty sure I could beat it. I know at least one rationalist with intense religious experiences who successfully managed to ask questions like "So how come the divine spirit can't tell me the twentieth digit of pi?" and discount them.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 August 2010 05:24:04PM 1 point [-]

What if you sustained hypoxic brain injury, as JCW may well have done during his cardiac event? (This might also explain why he think it's cool to write BSDM scenes featuring a 16-year-old schoolgirl as part of an ostensibly respectable work of SF, so it's a pet suspicion of mine.)

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 18 August 2010 02:18:05PM 3 points [-]

(This might also explain why he think it's cool to write BSDM scenes featuring a 16-year-old schoolgirl as part of an ostensibly respectable work of SF, so it's a pet suspicion of mine.)

Point of curiosity: Does anyone else still notice this sort of thing? I don't think my generation does anymore.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 18 August 2010 02:40:13PM *  1 point [-]

I've only read his Golden Age trilogy, so if it's there, then no, to this 50-something it didn't stand out from everything else that happened. If it's in something else, I doubt it would. I mean, I've read Richard Morgan's ultra-violent stuff, including the gay mediæval-style fantasy one, and, well, no.

[ETA: from Google the book in question appears to be Orphans of Chaos.]

I could be an outlier though.

Comment author: wedrifid 16 August 2010 07:13:56PM *  5 points [-]

his might also explain why he think it's cool to write BSDM scenes featuring a 16-year-old schoolgirl as part of an ostensibly respectable work of SF, so it's a pet suspicion of mine.

It would seem he is just writing for Mature Audiences. In this case maturity means not just 'the age at which we let people read pornographic text' but the kind of maturity that allows people to look beyond their own cultural prejudices.

16 is old. Not old enough according to our culture but there is no reason we should expect a fictional time-distant culture to have our particular moral or legal prescriptions. It wouldn't be all that surprising if someone from an actual future time to, when reading the work, scoff at how prudish a culture would have to be to consider sexualised portrayals of women that age to be taboo!

Mind you I do see how a hypoxic brain injury could alter someone's moral inhibitions and sensibilities in the kind of way you suggest. I just don't include loaded language in the speculation.

Comment author: CronoDAS 16 August 2010 11:09:27PM 5 points [-]

16 is old. Not old enough according to our culture but there is no reason we should expect a fictional time-distant culture to have our particular moral or legal prescriptions. It wouldn't be all that surprising if someone from an actual future time to, when reading the work, scoff at how prudish a culture would have to be to consider sexualised portrayals of women that age to be taboo!

Interestingly, if the book in question is the one I think it is, it takes place in Britain, where the age of consent is, in fact, sixteen.

Comment author: wedrifid 17 August 2010 04:33:06AM 2 points [-]

Come to think of it, 16 is the age of consent here (Australia - most states) too. I should have used 'your' instead of 'our' in the paragraph you quote! It seems I was just running with the assumption.

Comment author: CronoDAS 17 August 2010 04:48:44PM *  2 points [-]

Although "18 years old" does seem to be a hard-and-fast rule for when you can legally appear in porn everywhere, as far as I know...

Comment author: CronoDAS 16 August 2010 05:31:59PM 1 point [-]

Eh, you see people trying to "push boundaries" in "respectable" literature all the time anyway.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 August 2010 05:42:02PM 1 point [-]

Certainly there are other explanations. If you can show me that JCW openly wrote highly sexualized portrayals of people below the age of consent before his religious experience/heart attack, I will be happy to retract.

Comment author: Unknowns 09 August 2010 06:56:07AM 3 points [-]

Actually, you have to be sure that you wouldn't convert if you had John Wright's experiences, otherwise Aumann's agreement theorem should cause you to convert already, simply because John Wright had the experiences himself-- assuming you wouldn't say he's lying. I actually know someone who converted to religion on account of a supposed miracle, who said afterward that since they in fact knew before converting that other people had seen such things happen, they should have converted in the first place.

Although I have to admit I don't see why the divine spirit would want to tell you the 20th digit of pi anyway, so hopefully there would be a better argument than that.

Comment author: arundelo 16 August 2010 06:58:08PM 2 points [-]
Comment author: Unknowns 09 August 2010 06:48:39AM 2 points [-]

However, if EY converted to religion, he would (in that condition) assert that he had had good reasons for doing it, i.e. that it was rational. So he would have no reason to take down this website anyway.

Comment author: nawitus 08 August 2010 09:15:43PM 2 points [-]

You can use the wget program like this: 'wget -m lesswrong.com'. A database download would be easier on the servers though.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 08 August 2010 10:44:38PM 3 points [-]

Would people be interested in a place on LW for collecting book recommendations?

I'm reading The Logic of Failure and enjoying it quite a bit. I wasn't sure whether I'd heard of it here, and I found Great Books of Failure, an article which hadn't crossed my path before.

There's a recent thread about books for a gifted young tween which might or might not get found by someone looking for good books..... and so on.

Would it make more sense to have a top level article for book recommendations or put it in the wiki? Or both?

Comment author: hegemonicon 09 August 2010 03:54:01PM 1 point [-]

Considering most of my favorite books are the result of mentions in comment threads here, I'd say a book recommendation thread is in order.

Tangental, but I remember "Logic of Failure" to be mostly being mental phenomena I was already familiar with, and generalizations from computer experiments that I didn't find particularly compelling. I'll have to give it another look.

Comment author: Morendil 08 August 2010 10:54:32PM 1 point [-]

I'd say new top-level thread. The wiki can get a curated version of that.

Comment author: Yoreth 08 August 2010 05:09:32PM 3 points [-]

I think I may have artificially induced an Ugh Field in myself.

A little over a week ago it occurred to me that perhaps I was thinking too much about X, and that this was distracting me from more important things. So I resolved to not think about X for the next week.

Of course, I could not stop X from crossing my mind, but as soon as I noticed it, I would sternly think to myself, "No. Shut up. Think about something else."

Now that the week's over, I don't even want to think about X any more. It just feels too weird.

And maybe that's a good thing.

Comment author: Cyan 08 August 2010 05:48:00PM *  3 points [-]

I have also artificially induced an Ugh Field in myself. A few months ago, I was having a horrible problem with websurfing procrastination. I started using Firefox for browsing and LeechBlock to limit (but not eliminate) my opportunities for websurfing instead of doing work. I'm on a Windows box, and for the first three days I disabled IE, but doing so caused knock-on effects, so I had to re-enable it. However, I knew that resorting to IE to surf would simply recreate my procrastination problem, so... I just didn't. Now, when the thought occurs to me to do so, it auto-squelches.

Comment author: Unknowns 08 August 2010 06:35:53PM *  5 points [-]

I predict with 95% confidence that within six months you will have recreated your procrastination problem with some other means.

Comment author: Cyan 09 August 2010 08:04:26PM 5 points [-]

Your lack of confidence in me has raised my ire. I will prove you wrong!

Comment author: Unknowns 08 February 2011 03:24:58PM 2 points [-]

Did you start procrastinating again?

Comment author: Cyan 09 February 2011 03:36:08PM *  1 point [-]

Yep. Eventually I sought medical treatment.

Comment author: Unknowns 09 August 2010 08:07:17PM 3 points [-]

To be settled by February 8, 2011!

Comment author: Kevin 08 August 2010 10:42:02PM 1 point [-]
Comment author: Clippy 08 August 2010 10:46:47PM 1 point [-]

I know. Does any human mathematician really doubt that?

Comment author: Unknowns 09 August 2010 07:17:37AM 4 points [-]

I've been becoming more and more convinced that Kevin and Clippy are the same person. Besides Clippy's attempt to get money for Kevin, one reason is that both of them refer to people with labels like "User:Kevin". More evidence just came in here, namely these comments within 5 minutes of each other.

Comment author: multifoliaterose 09 August 2010 02:00:38AM *  3 points [-]

Yes, there are humans mathematicians who doubt that P is not equal to NP.

See "Guest Column: The P=?NP Poll" http://www.cs.umd.edu/~gasarch/papers/poll.pdf by William Gasarch where a poll was taken of 100 experts, 9 of whom ventured the guess that P = NP and 22 of whom offered no opinion on how the P vs. NP question will be resolved. The document has quotes from various of the people polled elaborating on what their beliefs are on this matter.

Comment author: Kevin 08 August 2010 10:51:02PM 1 point [-]

How do you know you know?

Comment author: JoshuaZ 09 August 2010 12:04:49AM *  2 points [-]

There's a very good summary by Scott Aaronson describing why we believe that P is very likely to be not equal to NP. However, Clippy's confidence seems unjustified. In particular, there was a poll a few years ago that showed that a majority of computer scientists believe that P=NP but a substantial fraction do not. (The link was here but seems to be not functioning at the moment (according to umd.edu's main page today they have a scheduled outage of most Web services for maintenance so I'll check again later. I don't remember the exact numbers so I can't cite them right now)).

This isn't precisely my area, but speaking as a mathematician whose work touches on complexity issues, I'd estimate around a 1/100 chance that P=NP.

Comment author: Sniffnoy 09 August 2010 05:17:17AM 1 point [-]

URL is repeated twice in link?

Comment author: Clippy 08 August 2010 11:14:59PM *  1 point [-]

Because if it were otherwise -- if verifying a solution were of the same order of computational difficulty of finding it -- it would be a lot harder to account for my observations than if it weren't so.

For example, verifying a proof would be of similar difficulty to finding the proof, which would mean nature would stumble upon representations isomorphic to either with similar probability, which we do not see.

The possibility that P = NP but with a "large polynomial degree" or constant is too ridiculous to be taken seriously; the algorithmic complexity of the set of NP-complete problems does not permit a shortcut that characterizes the entire set in a way that would allow such a solution to exist.

I can't present a formal proof, but I have sufficient reason to predicate future actions on P ≠ NP, for the same reason I have sufficient reason to predicate future actions on any belief I hold, including beliefs about the provability or truth of mathematical theorems.

Comment author: Kevin 08 August 2010 11:50:09PM 1 point [-]

Most human mathematicians think along similar lines. It will still be a big deal when P ≠ NP is proven, if for no other reason that it pays a million dollars. That's a lot of paperclips.

Let me know if you think you can solve any of these! http://www.claymath.org/millennium/

Comment author: sketerpot 08 August 2010 02:14:48AM *  4 points [-]

What simple rationality techniques give the most bang for the buck? I'm talking about techniques you might be able to explain to a reasonably smart person in five minutes or less: really the basics. If part of the goal here is to raise the sanity waterline in the general populace, not just among scientists, then it would be nice to have some rationality techniques that someone can use without much study.

Carl Sagan had a slogan: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." He would say this phrase and then explain how, when someone claims something extraordinary (i.e. something for which we have a very low probability estimate), they need correspondingly stronger evidence than if they'd made a higher-likelihood claim, like "I had a sandwich for lunch." Now, I'm sure everybody here can talk about this very precisely, in terms of Bayesian updating and odds ratios, but Sagan was able to get a lot of this across to random laypeople in about a minute. Maybe two minutes.

What techniques for rationality can be explained to a normal person in under five minutes? I'm looking for small and simple memes that will make people more rational, on average. I'll try a few candidates, to get the discussion started.

Candidate 1: Carl Sagan's concise explanation of how evidence works, as mentioned above.

Candidate 2: Everything that has an effect in the real world is part of the domain of science (and, more broadly, rationality). A lot of people have the truly bizarre idea that some theories are special, immune to whatever standards of evidence they may apply to any other theory. My favorite example is people who believe that prayers for healing actually make people who are prayed for more likely to recover, but that this cannot be scientifically tested. This is an obvious contradiction: they're claiming a measurable effect on the world and then pretending that it can't possibly be measured. I think that if you pointed out a few examples of this kind of special pleading to people, they might start to realize when they're doing it.

Candidate 3: Admitting that you were wrong is a way of winning an argument. There's a saying that "It takes a big man to admit he's wrong," and when people say this, they don't seem to realize that it's a huge problem! It shouldn't be hard to admit that you were wrong about something! It shouldn't feel like defeat; it should feel like victory. When you lose an argument with someone, it should be time for high fives and mutual jubilation, not shame and anger. I know that it's possible to retrain yourself to feel this way, because I've done it. This wasn't even too difficult; it was more a matter of just realizing that feeling good about conceding an argument was even an option.

Anti-candidate: "Just because something feels good doesn't make it true." I call this an anti-candidate because, while it's true, it's seldom helpful. People trot out this line as an argument against other people's ideas, but rarely apply it to their own. I want memes that will make people actually be more rational, instead of just feeling that way.

Any ideas? I know that the main goal of this community is to strive for rationality far beyond such low-hanging fruit, but if we can come up with simple and easy techniques that actually help people be more rational, there's a lot of value in that. You could use it as rationalist propaganda, or something.

EDIT: I've expanded this into a top-level post.

Comment author: Larks 09 August 2010 10:12:03PM 2 points [-]

I'm going to be running a series of Rationality & AI seminars with Alex Flint in the Autumn, where we'll introduce aspiring rationalists to new concepts in both fields; standard cognitive biases, a bit of Bayesianism, some of the basic problems with both AI and Friendliness. As such, this could be a very helpful thread.

We were thinking of introducing Overconfidence Bias; ask people to give 90% confidence intervals, and then reveal (surprise surprise!) that they're wrong half the time.

Comment author: sketerpot 10 August 2010 02:31:41AM 2 points [-]

Since it seemed like this could be helpful, I expanded this into a top-level post.

That 90% confidence interval thing sounds like one hell of a dirty trick. A good one, though.

Comment author: DuncanS 09 August 2010 12:58:34AM *  4 points [-]

I think some of the statistical fallacies that most people fall for are quite high up the list.

One such is the "What a coincidence!" fallacy. People notice that some unlikely event has occurred, and wonder how many millions to one against this event must have been - and yet it actually happenned ! Surely this means that my life is influenced by some supernatural influence!

The typical mistake is to simply calculate the likelihood of the occurrence of the particular event that occurred. Nothing wrong with that, but one should also compare that number against the whole basket of other possible unlikely events that you would have noticed if they'd happenned (of which there are surely millions), and all the possible occasions where all these unlikely events could have also occurred. When you do that, you discover that the likelihood of some unlikely thing happenning is quite high - which is in accordance with our experience that unlikely events do actually happen.

Another way of looking at it is that non-notable unlikely events happen all the time. Look, that particular car just passed me at exactly 2pm ! Most are not noticable. But sometimes we notice that a particular unlikely event just occurred, and of course it causes us to sit up and take notice. The question is how many other unlikely events you would also have noticed.

The key rational skill here is noticing the actual size of the set of unlikely things that might have happenned, and would have caught our attention if they had.

Comment author: RobinZ 08 August 2010 04:42:46PM *  3 points [-]

The concept of inferential distance is good. You wouldn't want to introduce it in the context of explaining something complicated - you'd just sound self-serving - but it'd be a good thing to crack out when people complain about how they just can't understand how anyone could believe $CLAIM.

Edit: It's also a useful concept when you are thinking about teaching.

Comment author: RobinZ 08 August 2010 02:41:20AM *  2 points [-]

#3 is a favorite of mine, but I like #1 too.

How about "Your intuitions are not magic"? Granting intuitions the force of authority seems to be a common failure mode of philosophy.

Comment author: sketerpot 08 August 2010 02:51:53AM 1 point [-]

That's a good lesson to internalize, but how do you get someone to internalize it? How do you explain it (in five minutes or less) in such a way that someone can actually use it?

I'm not saying that there's no easy way to explain it; I just don't know what that way would be. When I argue with someone who acts like their intuitions are magic, I usually go back to basic epistemology: define concisely what it means to be right about whatever we're discussing, and show that their intuitions here aren't magic. If there's a simple way to explain in general that intuition isn't magic, I'd really love to hear it. Any ideas?

Comment author: DuncanS 09 August 2010 02:22:58AM *  2 points [-]

Given that we haven't constructed a decent AI, and don't know how those intuitions actually work, we only really believe they're not magic on the grounds that we don't believe in magic generally, and don't see any reason why intuitions should be an exception to the rule that all things can be explained.

Perhaps an easier lesson is that intuitions can sometimes be wrong, and it's useful to know when that happens so we can correct for it. For example, most people are intuitively much more afraid of dying in dramatic and unusual ways (like air crashes or psychotic killers) than in more mundane ways like driving the car or eating unhealthy foods, Once it's established that intuitions are sometimes wrong, the fact that we don't exactly know how they work isn't so dangerous to one's thinking.

Comment author: RobinZ 08 August 2010 02:56:11AM 2 points [-]

Well, I thought Kaj_Sotana's explanation was good, but the five-minute constraint makes things very difficult. I tend to be so long-winded that I'm not sure I could get across any insight in five minutes, honestly, but you're right that "Your intuitions are not magic" is likely to be harder than many.

Comment author: PeerInfinity 08 August 2010 01:57:59AM *  2 points [-]

Scenario: A life insurance salesman, who happens to be a trusted friend of a relatively-new-but-so-far-trustworthy friend of yours, is trying to sell you a life insurance policy. He makes the surprising claim that after 20 years of selling life insurance, none of his clients have died. He seems to want you to think that buying a life insurance policy from him will somehow make you less likely to die.

How do you respond?

edit: to make this question more interesting: you also really don't want to offend any of the people involved.

Comment author: Larks 09 August 2010 10:27:50PM 2 points [-]

Tell him you found his pitch very interesting and persuasive, and that you'd like to buy life insurance for a 20 year period. Then, ponder for a little while; "Actually, it can't be having the contact that keeps them alive, can it? That's just a piece of paper. It must be that the sort of person who buy it are good at staying alive! And it looks like I'm one of them; this is excellent!

Then , you point out that as you're not going to die, you don't need life insurance, and say goodbye.

If you wanted to try to enlighten him, you might start by explicitly asking if he believed there was a causal link. But as the situation isn't really set up for honest truth-hunting, I wouldn't bother.

Comment author: soreff 10 August 2010 12:51:20AM 1 point [-]

Then , you point out that as you're not going to die, you don't need life insurance, and say goodbye.

If the salesman is omega in disguise, is this two-boxing? :-)

Comment author: Larks 10 August 2010 11:12:12AM 1 point [-]

Well, kind of. Unlike in Newcombe's, we have no evidence that it's the decision that cases the long-life, as opposed to some other factor correlated with both (which seems much more likely).

Comment author: wedrifid 08 August 2010 07:40:05AM *  8 points [-]

He makes the surprising claim that after 20 years of selling life insurance, none of his clients have died.

Wow. He admitted that to you? That seems to be strong evidence that most people refuse to buy life insurance from him. In a whole 20 years he hasn't sold enough insurance that even one client has died from unavoidable misfortune!

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 August 2010 06:32:51AM 8 points [-]

"No."

Life insurance salesmen are used to hearing that. If they act offended, it's a sales act. If you're reluctant to say it, you're easily pressured and you're taking advantage. You say "No". If they press you, you say, "Please don't press me further." That's all.

Comment author: Clippy 08 August 2010 04:00:25AM 3 points [-]

Buying life insurance can't extend a human's life.

Comment author: SilasBarta 09 August 2010 09:08:02PM *  1 point [-]

Thank you, Cliptain Obvious! The problem is to say how his claim is implausible or doesn't follow from his evidence, given that we already have that intuition.

Comment author: SilasBarta 08 August 2010 02:18:12AM *  4 points [-]

Since his sales rate probably increased with time, that means the average time after selling a policy is ~8 years. So the typical client of his didn't die after 8 years. Making a rough estimate of the age of the client he sells to, which would probably be 30-40, it just means that the typical client has lived to at least 48 or less, which is normal, not special.

Furthermore, people who buy life insurance self-select for being more prudent in general.

So, even ignoring the causal separations you could find, what he's told you is not very special. Though it separates him from other salesmen, the highest likelihood ratio you should put on this piece of evidence would be something like 1.05 (i.e. ~19 out of 20 salesmen could say the same thing), or not very informative, so you are only justified in making a very slight move toward his hypothesis, even under the most generous assumptions.

You could get a better estimate of his atypicality by asking more about his clients, at which point you would have identified factors that can screen off the factor of him selling a policy.

(Though in my experience, life insurance salesmen aren't very bright, and a few sentences into that explanation, you'll get the, "Oh, it's one of these people" look ...)

How'd I do?

Edit: Okay, I think I have to turn in my Bayes card for this one: I just came up with a reason why the hypothesis puts a high probability on the evidence, when in reality the evidence should have a low probability of existing. So it's more likely he doesn't have his facts right.

Maybe this is a good case to check the "But but somebody would have noticed" heuristic. If one of his clients died, would he even find out? Would the insurance company tell him? Does he regularly check up on his clients?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 08 August 2010 09:11:04AM 2 points [-]

Furthermore, people who buy life insurance self-select for being more prudent in general.

On the other hand, there's also selection for people who aren't expecting to live as long as the average, and this pool includes prudent people.

Anyone have information on owning life insurance and longevity?

Comment author: wedrifid 08 August 2010 01:56:57PM 1 point [-]

On the other hand, there's also selection for people who aren't expecting to live as long as the average, and this pool includes prudent people.

And on yet another hand there is selection for people who are expected to live longer than the average (selection from the salemen directly or mediated by price.)

Comment author: PeerInfinity 08 August 2010 02:41:48AM *  3 points [-]

I disagree with your analysis, but the details of why I disagree would be spoilers.

more details:

no, he's not deliberately selecting low-risk clients. He's trying to make as many sales as possible.

and he's had lots of clients. I don't know the actual numbers, but he has won awards for how many policies he has sold.

and he seems to honestly believe that there's something special about him that makes his clients not die. he's "one of those people".

and here's the first actuarial life table I found through a quick google search: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html

Comment author: PeerInfinity 08 August 2010 03:10:49AM 2 points [-]

I'm going to go ahead and post the spoiler, rot13'd

Zl thrff: Ur'f ylvat. Naq ur'f cebonoyl ylvat gb uvzfrys nf jryy, va beqre sbe gur yvr gb or zber pbaivapvat. Gung vf, qryvorengryl sbetrggvat nobhg gur pyvragf jub unir qvrq.

Vs ur unf unq a pyvragf, naq vs gurve nirentr ntr vf 30... Rnpu lrne, gur cebonovyvgl bs rnpu bs gurz fheivivat gur arkg lrne vf, jryy, yrg'f ebhaq hc gb 99%. Gung zrnaf gung gur cebonovyvgl bs nyy bs gurz fheivivat vf 0.99^a. Rira vs ur unf bayl unq 100 pyvragf, gura gur cebonovyvgl bs gurz nyy fheivivat bar lrne vf 0.99^100=0.36 Vs ur unq 200 pyvragf, gura gur cebonovyvgl bs gurz nyy fheivivat bar lrne vf 0.99^200=0.13. Naq gung'f whfg sbe bar lrne. Gur sbezhyn tbrf rkcbaragvny ntnva vs lbh pbafvqre nyy 20 lrnef. Gur cebonovyvgl bs nyy 100 pyvragf fheivivat 20 lrnef vf 0.99^100^20=1.86R-9

Naq zl npghny erfcbafr vf... qba'g ohl gur yvsr vafhenapr. Ohg qba'g gryy nalbar gung lbh guvax ur'f ylvat. (hayrff lbh pbhag guvf cbfg.) Nyfb, gur sevraq ab ybatre pbhagf nf "gehfgrq", be ng yrnfg abg gehfgrq gb or engvbany. Bu, naq srry ernyyl thvygl sbe abg svaqvat n orggre fbyhgvba, naq cbfg gb YJ gb frr vs nalbar guvaxf bs n orggre vqrn. Ohg qba'g cbfg rabhtu vasbezngvba sbe nalbar gb npghnyyl guvax bs n orggre fbyhgvba. Naq vs fbzrbar qbrf guvax bs n orggre vqrn naljnl, vtaber vg vs vg'f gbb fpnel.

Comment author: SilasBarta 08 August 2010 03:00:39AM *  1 point [-]

I disagree with your analysis, but the details of why I disagree would be spoilers.

But I can only make inferences on what you've told me. If there's a factor that throws off the general inferences you can make from a salesman's clientele, you can't fault me for not using it. It's like you're trying to say:

"This dude was born in the US. He's 50 years old. Can he speak English?" -> Yeah, probably. -> "Haha! No, he can't! I didn't tell you he was abducted to Cambodia as an infant and grew up there!"

Anyway, the next step is to estimate what fraction of salesman with the same clientele composition have not had their clients die and see how atypical he is. Plus, his sales record would have to start from early in his career, or else his clients fall mostly within recent sales, a time span in which people normally don't die anyway.

Comment author: RobinZ 08 August 2010 02:33:03AM 2 points [-]

With a degree of discombobulation, I imagine. I can't see any causal mechanism by which buying insurance would cause you to live longer, so unless the salesman knows something I wouldn't expect him to, he would seem to have acquired an unreliable belief. Given this, I would postpone buying any insurance from him in case this unreliable belief could have unfortunate further consequences* and I would reduce my expectation that the salesman might prove to be an exceptional rationalist.

* For example: given his superstition, he may have allotted inadequate cash reserves to cover future life insurance payments.

Comment author: cupholder 08 August 2010 03:46:25AM 1 point [-]

Maybe the salesman mostly sells temporary life insurance, and just means that no clients had died while covered?

Comment author: SilasBarta 06 August 2010 11:20:58PM 2 points [-]

Goodhart sighting? Misunderstanding of causality sighting? Check out this recent economic analysis on Slate.com (emphasis added):

For much of the modern American era, inflation has been viewed as an evil demon to be exorcised, ideally before it even rears its head. This makes sense: Inflation robs people of their savings, and the many Americans who have lived through periods of double-digit inflation know how miserable it is. But sometimes a little bit of inflation is valuable. During the Great Depression, government policies deliberately tried to create inflation. Rising prices are a sign of rising output, something that would be welcome in the current slow-motion recovery.

(He then quotes an economist that says inflation would also prop up home values and prevent foreclosures.)

Did I get that right? Because inflation has traditionally been a sign of (caused by) rising output, you should directly cause inflation, in order to cause higher output. (Note: in order to complete the case for inflation, you arguably have to do the same thing again, but replacing inflation with output, and output with reduced unemployment.)

A usual, I'm not trying to start a political debate about whether inflation is good or bad, or what should be done to increase/decrease inflation. I'm interested in this particular way of arguing for pro-inflation policies, which seems to even recognize which way the causality flows, but still argue as if it runs the opposite direction.

Am I misunderstanding it?

LW Goodhart article

Comment author: Spurlock 06 August 2010 03:14:53PM 2 points [-]

Last night I introduced a couple of friends to Newcomb's Problem/Counterfactual Mugging, and we discussed it at some length. At some point, we somehow stumbled across the question "how do you picture Omega?"

Friend A pictures Omega as a large (~8 feet) humanoid with a deep voice and a wide stone block for a head.

When Friend B hears Omega, he imagines Darmani from Majora's mask (http://www.kasuto.net/image/officialart/majora_darmani.jpg)

And for my part, I've always pictured him a humanoid with paper-white skin in a red jumpsuit with a cape (the cape, I think, comes from hearing him described as "flying off" after he's confounded you).

So it seemed worth asking LW just for the amusement: how do you picture Omega?

Comment author: cousin_it 06 August 2010 03:30:47PM *  6 points [-]

I've always pictured Omega like this: suddenly I'm pulled from our world and appear in a sterile white room that contains two boxes. At the same moment I somehow know the problem formulation. I open one box, take the million, and return to the world.

Comment author: h-H 06 August 2010 10:03:41PM *  1 point [-]

This, down to the white room and being pulled. Omega doesn't Have form or personality. He's beyond physics.

Comment author: Spurlock 06 August 2010 04:26:33PM 1 point [-]

And when you get counterfactually mugged, you're in a sterile white room with a vending machine bill acceptor planted in the wall?

Comment author: cousin_it 06 August 2010 05:00:44PM 1 point [-]

No, just an empty room. If I take a bill out of my pocket and hold it in front of me, it disappears and I go back. If I say "no", I go back.

Comment author: Leonhart 06 August 2010 08:29:31PM 1 point [-]

At the risk of spoiling a very good webcomic; Omega looks like this.

DAMN YOU WILLIS.

Comment author: WrongBot 06 August 2010 03:18:13PM 2 points [-]

I've always thought of Omega as looking something like a hydralisk--biological and alien, almost a scaled-down Lovecraftian horror.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 05 November 2010 12:30:40AM 1 point [-]

(Necro-thread)

I can't explain why, but I've always imagined Omega to be a big hovering red sphere with a cartoonish face, and black beholder-like eyestalks coming off him from all sides.

He may have been influenced by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 06 August 2010 06:52:02PM 1 point [-]

As people are probably aware, Hitchens has cancer, which is likely to kill him in the not-too-distant future. There does not seem to be much to be done about this; but I wonder if it's possible to pass the hat to pay for cryonics for him? Apart from the fuzzies of saving a life with X percent probability, which can be had much cheaper by sending food to Africa, it might serve as marketing for cryonics, causing others to sign up. Of course, this assumes that he would accept, and also that there wouldn't be a perception that he was just grasping at any straw available.

Comment author: ciphergoth 06 August 2010 07:46:56PM 4 points [-]

I'd love to persuade him, but no way am I passing a hat.

Comment author: dclayh 06 August 2010 06:55:42PM *  1 point [-]
  1. Would Hitchens not be able to afford cryonics without donations?

  2. perception that he was just grasping at any straw available

What's wrong with this? Isn't that exactly what cryonics is: grasping the only available straw?

(Hm, how do I get a sentence inside the numbering indentation but outside the quotation?)

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 06 August 2010 07:21:20PM 2 points [-]

Would Hitchens not be able to afford cryonics without donations?

Perhaps so, but would he consider it the best use of his resources? While if he gets it for free, take it or lose it, that's a different matter.

What's wrong with this? Isn't that exactly what cryonics is: grasping the only available straw?

For marketing purposes it would be an epic fail. In interviews he has made the point that no, he will not be doing any deathbed conversions unless he goes mad from pain. If cryonics is seen as only a deathbed conversion to a different religion (easy pattern completions: "Rapture of the Nerds", "weird beliefs = cults") it'll merely reinforce the perception of cryonics as something rather kooky which serious people needn't spend time on. Your point is correct, but will only work as PR if that's how it gets across to the public: This is a straw with an actual chance of working.

Comment author: dclayh 06 August 2010 07:52:53PM 1 point [-]

Ah, I see. Certainly it would be better if he made the choice well before he's at death's door/in terrible pain/etc..

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 06 August 2010 03:06:07PM 2 points [-]

AI development in the real world?

As a result, a lot of programmers at HFT firms spend most of their time trying to keep the software from running away. They create elaborate safeguard systems to form a walled garden around the traders but, exactly like a human trader, the programs know that they make money by being novel, doing things that other traders haven't thought of. These gatekeeper programs are therefore under constant, hectic development as new algorithms are rolled out. The development pace necessitates that they implement only the most important safeguards, which means that certain types of algorithmic behavior can easily pass through. As has been pointed out by others, these were "quotes" not "trades", and they were far away from the inside price - therefore not something the risk management software would be necessarily be looking for. -- comment from gameDevNYC

I can't evaluate whether what he's saying is plausible enough for science fiction-- it's certainly that-- or likely to be true.

Comment author: XiXiDu 06 August 2010 08:29:33AM 6 points [-]

Interesting SF by Robert Charles Wilson!

I normally stay away from posting news to lesswrong.com - although I think an Open Thread for relevant news items would be a good idea - but this one sounds especially good and might be of interest for people visiting this site...

Many-Worlds in Fiction: "Divided by Infinity"

In the year after Lorraine's death I contemplated suicide six times. Contemplated it seriously, I mean: six times sat with the fat bottle of Clonazepam within reaching distance, six times failed to reach for it, betrayed by some instinct for life or disgusted by my own weakness.

I can't say I wish I had succeeded, because in all likelihood I did succeed, on each and every occasion. Six deaths. No, not just six. An infinite number.

Times six.

There are greater and lesser infinities.

But I didn't know that then.

Comment author: humpolec 08 August 2010 01:38:04PM 5 points [-]

Thank you.

The idea reminded me of Moravec's thoughts on death:

When we die, the rules surely change. As our brains and bodies cease to function in the normal way, it takes greater and greater contrivances and coincidences to explain continuing consciousness by their operation. We lose our ties to physical reality, but, in the space of all possible worlds, that cannot be the end. Our consciousness continues to exist in some of those, and we will always find ourselves in worlds where we exist and never in ones where we don't. The nature of the next simplest world that can host us, after we abandon physical law, I cannot guess. Does physical reality simply loosen just enough to allow our consciousness to continue? Do we find ourselves in a new body, or no body? It probably depends more on the details of our own consciousness than did the original physical life. Perhaps we are most likely to find ourselves reconstituted in the minds of superintelligent successors, or perhaps in dreamlike worlds (or AI programs) where psychological rather than physical rules dominate. Our mind children will probably be able to navigate the alternatives with increasing facility. For us, now, barely conscious, it remains a leap in the dark.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 August 2010 05:50:27PM 3 points [-]

I already wrote this fic ("The Grand Finale of the Ultimate Meta Mega Crossover").

Comment author: XiXiDu 08 August 2010 06:38:26PM *  2 points [-]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that many people who know about you and the SIAI are oblivious of your fiction. At least I myself only found out about it some time after learning about you and SIAI.

It is generally awesome stuff and would be enough in itself to donate to SIAI. Spreading such fiction stories might actually attract more people to dig deeper and find out about SIAI than to be be thrown in at the deep end.

Edit: I myself came to know about SIAI due to SF, especially Orion's Arm.

Comment author: Alexandros 06 August 2010 08:31:31AM 4 points [-]
Comment author: hegemonicon 09 August 2010 05:16:22PM *  1 point [-]

Related - verbal overshadowing, where describing something verbally blocks retrieving perceptual memories of it. Critically, verbal overshadowing doesn't always occur - sometimes verbal descriptions improve reasoning.

Doesn't refute Lehrer's main point exactly, but does complicate it somewhat.

Comment author: Sniffnoy 05 August 2010 11:13:39PM 7 points [-]

I found TobyBartels's recent explanation of why he doesn't want to sign up for cryonics a useful lesson in how different people's goals in living a long time (or not) can be from mine. Now I am wondering if maybe it would be a good idea to state some of the reasons people would want to wake up 100 years later if hit by a bus. Can't say I've been around here very long but it seems to me it's been assumed as some sort of "common sense" - is that accurate? I was wondering if other people's reasons for signing up / intending to sign up (I am not currently signed up and probably will not get around to such for several years) also differed interestingly from mine. Or is this too off topic?

As for me, I would think the obvious reason is what Hilbert said: "If I were to awaken after having slept for a thousand years, my first question would be: Has the Riemann hypothesis been proven?" Finding yourself in the future means you now have the answers to a lot of previously open problems! As well as getting to learn the history of what happened after you were frozen. I have for a long time found not getting to learn the future history of the world to be the most troubling aspect of dying.

(Posting this here as it seems a bit off-topic under The Threat of Cryonics.)

Comment author: soreff 08 August 2010 03:17:45AM 1 point [-]

The single largest motivation for me is just that a future which is powerful enough, and rich enough, and benevolent enough to revive cryonicists is likely to be a very pleasant place to be in. If nothing else, lots of their everyday devices are likely to look like marvelous toys from my point of view. The combination of that with the likelihood that if they can repair me at all, I'd guess that they would use a youthful body (physical or simulated) as a model is quite enough to be an attractive prospect.

Comment author: steven0461 05 August 2010 11:48:46PM *  7 points [-]

It sure seems like a lot of people could feed their will to live by reading just the first half of an exciting fiction book.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 August 2010 12:01:42AM 4 points [-]

We would need to drastically strengthen norms against spoilers.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 05 August 2010 11:28:45PM 6 points [-]

One thought is that it's tempting to think of yourself as being the only one (presumably with help from natives) trying to deal with the changed world.

Actually I think it's more likely that there will be many people from your era, and there will be immigrants' clubs, with people who've been in the future for a while helping the greenhorns. I find this makes the future seem more comfortable.

The two major reasons I can think of for wanting to be in the future is that I rather like being me, and the future should be interesting.

Comment author: knb 06 August 2010 03:43:10AM 3 points [-]

Does anyone have any book recommendations for a gifted young teen? My nephew is 13, and he recently blew the lid off of a school-administered IQ test.

For his birthday, I want to give him some books that will inspire him to achieve great things and live a happy life full of hard work. At the very least, I want to give him some good math and science books. He has already has taken algebra, geometry and introductory calculus, so he knows some math already.

Comment author: MartinB 09 August 2010 09:20:11PM 2 points [-]

The Heinlein Juveniles. 'have space suit will travel' and others have the whole self-reliance, work hard and achieve things strongly ingrained. I cannot judge how well the integrate with your current culture, but in the 50s they sold well, and still do. But those are not specific for über-bright kids, more for the normal bright types. If he hasn't done so yet, just introducing him to the next big library might help a lot.

Comment author: MartinB 18 August 2010 02:30:47AM 1 point [-]

Another all-purpose book: Bill Brysons: short history of almost everything. It is not aim at kids, but very accessible, well written and deal with lots of the history of sciences, including the ignoring of great achievements, misleading pathways and such.

A great overview.

Comment author: Soki 07 August 2010 05:07:15AM *  4 points [-]

knb, does your nephew know about lesswrong, rationality and the Singularity? I guess I would have enjoyed reading such a website when I was a teenager.

When it comes to a physical book, Engines of Creation by Drexler can be a good way to introduce him to nanotechnology and what science can make happen. (I know that nanotech is far less important that FAI, but I think it is more "visual" : you can imagine those nanobots manufacturing stuff or curing diseases, while you cannot imagine a hard takeoff).
Teenagers need dream.

Comment author: knb 07 August 2010 06:13:42AM *  2 points [-]

My sister and brother-in-law are both semi-religious theists, so I'm a bit reluctant to introduce him to anything as hardcore-atheist as Less Wrong, at least right now. Going through that huge theist-to-atheist identity transition can be really traumatic. I think it would be better if he was a bit older before he had confront those ideas.

I was 16 before I really allowed myself to accept that I didn't believe in God, and that was still a major crisis for me. If he starts getting into hardcore rationality material this early, I'm afraid it could force a choice between rationality and wishful thinking that he may not be ready to make.

Comment author: Interpolate 07 August 2010 06:58:08AM *  2 points [-]

If he is gifted and interested in science, introducing him to lesswrong, rationality and the Singularity could have a substantial positive impact on his academic development. What would be the worst that could happen?

Comment author: knb 07 August 2010 08:19:17AM 5 points [-]

My concern is not just that it would be traumatic, but that it will be so traumatic that he'll rationalize himself into a "belief in belief" situation. I had my crisis of faith when I was close to his age (14) and I wasn't ready to accept something that would alienate me from my family yet, so I simply told myself that I believed, and tried not to think about the issue. (I suspect this is why most people don't come out as atheists until after they've established separate identities from their parents and families.

A lot of people never escape from these traps. I think waiting somewhat--until he's somewhat older and more mature--will make him more likely to come to the right conclusions in the end.

Comment author: wedrifid 07 August 2010 08:27:52AM 1 point [-]

How is the above wrong enough to be at -2? I nearly universally reject any assertions that people have a duty to interfere with others but even so I don't have a problem with the above.

Comment author: cousin_it 06 August 2010 07:02:38PM *  17 points [-]

Books are not enough. Smart kids are lonely. Get him into a good school (or other community) where he won't be the smartest one. That happened to me at 11 when I was accepted into Russia's best math school and for the first time in my life I met other people worth talking to, people who actually thought before saying words. Suddenly, to regain my usual position of the smart kid, I had to actually work hard. It was very very important. I still go to school reunions every year, even though I finished it 12 years ago.

Comment author: Wei_Dai 06 August 2010 08:32:43PM 5 points [-]

Alternatively, not having any equally smart kids to talk to will force him to read books and/or go online for interesting ideas and conversation. I don't think I had any really interesting real-life conversations until college, when I did an internship at Microsoft Research, and I'd like to think that I turned out fine.

My favorite book, BTW, is A Fire Upon the Deep. But one of the reasons I like it so much is that I was heavily into Usenet when I first read it, and I'm not sure that aspect of the book will resonate as much today. (I was determined to become a one-man Sandor Arbitration Intelligence. :)

Comment author: orthonormal 06 August 2010 07:16:48PM 2 points [-]

Seconded. Whether he's exposed to a group of people who think ideas can be cool could be the biggest influence on him for the rest of his life.

Comment author: mattnewport 06 August 2010 08:27:18PM 1 point [-]

Thirded. My experience is that most schools can be very damaging for smart kids.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 06 August 2010 08:05:24AM 9 points [-]

Forum favorite Good and Real looks reasonably accessible to me, and covers a lot of ground. Also seconding Gödel, Escher Bach.

The Mathematical Experience has essays about doing mathematics, written by actual mathematicians. It seems like very good reading for someone who might be considering studying math.

The Road to Reality has Roger Penrose trying to explain all of modern physics and the required mathematics without pulling any punches and starting from grade school math in a single book. Will probably cause a brain meltdown at some point on anyone who doesn't already know the stuff, but just having a popular science style book that nevertheless goes on to explain the general theory of relativity without handwaving is pretty impressive. Doesn't include any of Penrose's less fortunate forays into cognitive science and AI.

Darwin's Dangerous Idea by Daniel Dennett explains how evolution isn't just something that happens in biology, but how it turns up in all sorts of systems.

Armchair Universe and old book about "computer recreations", probably most famous is the introduction of the Core War game. The other topics are similar, setting up an environment with a simple program that has elaborate emergent behavior coming out of it. Assumes the reader might actually program the recreations themselves, and provides appropriate detail.

Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman is pretty much entertainment, but still very good. Feynman is still the requisite trickster-god patron saint of math and science.

Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software explains how computers are put together, starting from really concrete first principles (flashing Morse code with flashlights, mechanical relay circuits) and getting up to microprocessors, RAM and executable program code.

Comment author: orthonormal 06 August 2010 07:12:46PM 2 points [-]

Good and Real is superb, but really too dry for a 13-year-old. I'd wait on that one.

Surely You're Joking is also fantastic, but get it read and approved by your nephew's parents first; there's a few sexual stories with a hint of a PUA worldview.

Comment author: cata 06 August 2010 02:01:52PM *  1 point [-]

I loved "The Mathematical Experience" when I was 13-ish, and I re-read it recently; still good! I strongly second this recommendation.

Comment author: XiXiDu 06 August 2010 09:53:20AM 1 point [-]

Thanks, I just ordered 'Darwin's Dangerous Idea' and 'Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software'. I've already got the others.

Here a tidbit from 'The Mathematical Experience'

In the 3,000 categories of mathematical writing, new mathematics is being created at a constantly increasing rate. The ocean is expanding, both in depth and in breadth.

By multiplying the number of papers per issue and the average number of theorems per paper, their estimate came to nearly two hundred thousand theorems a year. If the number of theorems is larger than one can possibly survey, who can be trusted to judge what is 'important'? One cannot have survival of the fittest if there is no interaction. It is actually impossible to keep abreast of even the more outstanding and exciting results. How can one reconcile this with the view that mathematics will survive as a single science? In mathematics one becomes married to one's own little field. [...] The variety of objects worked on by young scientists is growing exponentially. [...] Only within the narrow perspective of a particular speciality can one see a coherent pattern of development.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 06 August 2010 01:54:09PM 1 point [-]

I've ordered a copy, but on a second look, I'm not sure that the argument is sound, or even interesting.

Biological evolution runs on the local non-survival of the least fit (and sometimes the unlucky), not on an overview-based evaluation of the fittest.

Comment author: Kevin 06 August 2010 03:59:10AM 7 points [-]

Godel Escher Bach!

Comment author: RobinZ 06 August 2010 03:53:45AM 2 points [-]

My dad's been trying to get me to read the Feynman Lectures for ages - the man's a good writer if your nephew would be interested by physics.

Comment author: jimmy 06 August 2010 12:18:00AM 3 points [-]

Does anyone know where the page that used to live here can be found?

It was an experiment where two economists were asked to play 100 turn asymmetric prisoners dilemma with communication on each turn to the experimenters, but not each other.

It was quite amusing in that even though they were both economists and should have known better, the guy on the 'disadvantaged' side was attempting to have the other guy let him defect once in a while to make it "fair".

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 06 August 2010 04:07:36AM *  2 points [-]
Comment author: gwern 06 August 2010 04:02:42AM 2 points [-]
Comment author: gwern 05 August 2010 10:08:51AM *  4 points [-]

One little anti-akrasia thing I'm trying is editing my crontab to periodically pop up an xmessage with a memento mori phrase. It checks that my laptop lid is open, gets a random integer and occasionally pops up the # of seconds to my actuarial death (gotten from Death Clock; accurate enough, I figure):

 1,16,31,46 * * * * if grep open /proc/acpi/button/lid/LID0/state; then if [ $((`date \+\%\s` % 6)) = 1 ]; then xmessage "$(((`date --date="9 August 2074" \+\%\s` - `date \+\%\s`) / 60)) minutes left to live. Is what you are doing important?"; fi; fi

(I figure it's stupid enough a tactic and cheap enough to be worth trying. This shell stuff works in both bash and dash/sh, however, you probably want to edit the first conditional, since I'm not sure Linux puts the lid data at the same place in /proc/acpi in every system.)

Comment author: gwern 14 August 2010 04:17:49PM *  1 point [-]

OK, I can't seem to get the escaping to work right with crontab no matter how I fiddle, so I've replaced the one-liner with a regular script and meaningful variables names and all:

 1,14,32,26 * * * * ~/bin/bin/memento-mori

The script itself being (with the 32-bit hack mentioned below):

#!/bin/sh
set -e
if grep open /proc/acpi/button/lid/LID?/state > /dev/null
then
CURRENT=`date +%s`;
if [ $(( $CURRENT % 8 )) = 1 ]
then
# DEATH_DATE=`date --date='9 August 2074' +%s`
DEATH_DATE="3300998400"
REMAINING=$(( $DEATH_DATE - $CURRENT ))
REMAINING_MINUTES=$(( $REMAINING / 60 ))
REMAINING_MINUTES_FMT=`env printf "%'d" $REMAINING_MINUTES`
(sleep 10m && killall xmessage &)
xmessage "$REMAINING_MINUTES_FMT minutes left to live. Is what you are doing important?"
fi
fi
Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 05 August 2010 10:23:02AM 1 point [-]

Dates that far into the future don't seem to work with the date on 32-bit Linux.

Fun idea otherwise. You should report back in a month or so if you're still using it.

Comment author: Wei_Dai 05 August 2010 05:01:20PM 1 point [-]

Knowing that medicine is often more about signaling care than improving health, it's hard for me to make a big fuss over some minor ailment of a friend or family member. Consciously trying to signal care seems too fake and manipulative. Unfortunately, others then interpret my lack of fuss-making as not caring. Has anyone else run into this problem, and if so, how did you deal with it?

Comment author: byrnema 05 August 2010 08:02:59PM *  6 points [-]

I feel like I've wrestled with this, or something similar. I will throw some thoughts out.

In relating to your example, I recall times when I was expected to give care that I didn't think a person needed, and I guess my sense was that they were weak to expect it (and so I was unable to empathize with them), or that my fake care would encourage them to be weak. I also felt that the care was disingenuous because it wasn't really doing anything.

I no longer feel that way, and what changed over several years, I guess, is a deeper realization (along an independent, separate path of experiences, including being a mother) of the human condition: we are all lonely, isolated minds trapped in physical bodies. We ache for connection -- more so at different times of our lives, and some more than others, with different levels of comfort for different levels -- but infants can't survive without affection and children and adults also need affection. (Alicorn's "love languages" appropriate here.) Whatever expressions of affection we prefer, I think we need all of them a little bit, and physical, platonic affection is something we just don't receive as often. (I hear this is especially true for the elderly.)

Signaling medical care is token for physical care, thus it stands in for physical affection -- even if there is no physical contact involved. If there is physical contact involved -- the placement of a band-aid on a knee -- then that is even better. I think it is important to realize that people do have a need for such physical affection, and medical situations provide a context for this (often at times when people are in need of more affection anyway).

Comment author: orthonormal 05 August 2010 08:28:27PM 4 points [-]

Good point. But the next question ought to be whether there's a creative third alternative that would allow us to better signal our caring while being less wasteful. In some cases (the rising popularity of hospice rather than hospital for terminal illness), we can see this already being done.

(For a similar example, some couples planning weddings are moving away from the massively wasteful† registry option in favor of other ideas. It looks tacky to just ask for a cash donation, of course, but there really are third alternatives-- one couple asked for donations toward the specific events they planned for their honeymoon, while others ask for donations toward a favored list of charities. Etc.)

† Guests signal their generosity and regard for the new couple by buying them something from a set of nice things. However, the couple typically asks for things that are uselessly nicer than what they would buy themselves if it were their money, so as to signal sophistication. The end result is that a lot of money gets wasted on overly specific kitchen gadgets which will gather dust, or overly nice china that rarely gets used, etc.

Comment author: [deleted] 05 August 2010 02:41:05PM *  1 point [-]

One way to model someone's beliefs, at a given frozen moment of time, is as a real-valued function P on the set of all assertions. In an ideal situation, P will be subject to a lot of consistency conditions, for instance if A is a logical consequence of B, then P(A) is not smaller than P(B). This ideal P is very smart: if such a P has P(math axioms) very close to 1, then it will have P(math theorems) very close to 1 as well.

Clearly, even a Bayesian superintelligence is not going to maintain an infinitely large database of values of P, that it updates from instant to instant. Rather, it will have something like a computer program that takes as inputs assertions A, spends some time thinking, and outputs numbers P(A). I think we cannot expect the computed numbers P(A) to have the consistency property (B implies A means P(A) not smaller than P(B)). For instance it should be possible for a superintelligence to answer a math question (I don't know, Goldbach's conjecture) with "very likely true" and have Goldbach's conjecture turn out false.

(Since "A" is a logical consequence of "A and B", I guess I am accusing superintelligences of committing a souped-up form of the conjunction fallacy.)

The fact that a prior in practice won't be a set of cached numbers but instead a computer program, subject to all the attendant resource constraints, seems important to me, but I'm open to the possibility that it's a red herring. Am I making some kind of classic or easily addressed error?

Comment author: wedrifid 05 August 2010 04:05:55PM *  3 points [-]

I think we cannot expect the computed numbers P(A) to have the consistency property (B implies A means P(A) not smaller than P(B)).

Clarify for me what you are saying here. Why would a bounded-rational superintelligence maintain a logically inconsistent belief system? Are you making the following observation?

  • Even a superintelligence is not logically omniscient
  • There are inevitably going to be complicated mathematical properties of the superintelligence's map that are not worth spending processing time on. This is ensured by the limits of physics itself.
  • Outside the 'bounds' of the superintelligence's logical searching there will be logical properties for which the superintelligence's beliefs are not consistent.
  • A bayesian superintelligence is not logically omniscient so some of it's beliefs will be logically inconsistent.

My impression is that the above holds true unless the superintelligence in question cripples itself, sacrificing most of it's instrumentally rational capability for epistemic purity.

Comment author: [deleted] 05 August 2010 07:11:35PM 2 points [-]

I am glad that a term like "bounded-rational" exists. If it's been discussed someplace very thoroughly then I likely don't have very much to add. What are some proposals for modeling bounded Bayesianism?

I think what I'm saying is consistent with your bullet points, but I would go further. I'll focus on one point: I do not think it's possible for a bounded agent to be epistemically pure, even having sacrificed most or all of its instrumentally rational capability. Epistemic impurity is built right into math and logic.

Let me make the following assumption about our bounded rational agent: given any assertion A, it has the capability of computing its prior P(A) in time that is polynomial in the length of A. That is, it is not strictly agnostic about anything. Since there exist assertions A which are logical consequences of some axioms, but whose shortest proof is super-polynomial (in fact it gets much worse) in the length of A, it seem very unlikely that we will have P(A) > P(Axioms) for all provable assertions A.

(I think you could make this into a rigorous mathematical statement, but I am not claiming to have proved it--I don't see how to rule out the possibility that P always computes P(A) > P(Axioms) (and quickly!) just by luck. Such a P would be very valuable.)

Comment author: wedrifid 06 August 2010 03:50:07AM *  1 point [-]

I believe you are correct. A bounded rational agent that is not strictly agnostic about anything will produce outputs that contain logical inconsistencies.

For a superintelligence to avoid such inconsistencies it would have to violate the 'not strictly agnostic about anything' assumption either explicitly or practically. By 'practically' I mean it could refuse to return output until such time as it has proven the logical correctness of a given A. It may burn up the neg-entropy of its future light cone before it returns but hey, at least it was never wrong. A bounded rational agent in denial about its 'bounds'.

Comment author: gwern 05 August 2010 05:12:10AM 3 points [-]

"CIA Software Developer Goes Open Source, Instead":

"Burton, for example, spent years on what should’ve been a straightforward project. Some CIA analysts work with a tool, “Analysis of Competing Hypotheses,” to tease out what evidence supports (or, mostly, disproves) their theories. But the Java-based software is single-user — so there’s no ability to share theories, or add in dissenting views. Burton, working on behalf of a Washington-area consulting firm with deep ties to the CIA, helped build on spec a collaborative version of ACH. He tried it out, using the JonBenet Ramsey murder case as a test. Burton tested 51 clues — the lack of a scream, evidence of bed-wetting — against five possible culprits. “I went in, totally convinced it all pointed to the mom,” Burton says. “Turns out, that wasn’t right at all.”"

Comment author: Rain 09 August 2010 08:04:33PM *  3 points [-]

Far more interesting than the software is the chapter in the CIA book Psychology of Intelligence Analysis where they describe the method:

Analysis of competing hypotheses, sometimes abbreviated ACH, is a tool to aid judgment on important issues requiring careful weighing of alternative explanations or conclusions. It helps an analyst overcome, or at least minimize, some of the cognitive limitations that make prescient intelligence analysis so difficult to achieve.

ACH is an eight-step procedure grounded in basic insights from cognitive psychology, decision analysis, and the scientific method. It is a surprisingly effective, proven process that helps analysts avoid common analytic pitfalls. Because of its thoroughness, it is particularly appropriate for controversial issues when analysts want to leave an audit trail to show what they considered and how they arrived at their judgment.

Summary and conclusions:

Three key elements distinguish analysis of competing hypotheses from conventional intuitive analysis.

  • Analysis starts with a full set of alternative possibilities, rather than with a most likely alternative for which the analyst seeks confirmation. This ensures that alternative hypotheses receive equal treatment and a fair shake.
  • Analysis identifies and emphasizes the few items of evidence or assumptions that have the greatest diagnostic value in judging the relative likelihood of the alternative hypotheses. In conventional intuitive analysis, the fact that key evidence may also be consistent with alternative hypotheses is rarely considered explicitly and often ignored.
  • Analysis of competing hypotheses involves seeking evidence to refute hypotheses. The most probable hypothesis is usually the one with the least evidence against it, not the one with the most evidence for it. Conventional analysis generally entails looking for evidence to confirm a favored hypothesis.
Comment author: simplicio 05 August 2010 12:30:06AM *  4 points [-]

An amusing case of rationality failure: Stockwell Day, a longstanding albatross around Canada's neck, says that more prisons need to be built because of an 'increase in unreported crime.'

As my brother-in-law amusingly noted on FB, quite apart from whether the actual claim is true (no evidence is forthcoming), unless these unreported crimes are leading to unreported trials and unreported incarcerations, it's not clear why we would need more prisons.

Comment author: Yvain 05 August 2010 05:22:59AM 1 point [-]

A long time ago on Overcoming Bias, there was a thread started by Eliezer which was a link to a post on someone else's blog. The linked post posed a question, something like: "Consider two scientists. One does twenty experiments, and formulates a theory that explains all twenty results. Another does ten experiments, formulates a theory that adequately explains all ten results, does another ten experiments, and finds that eir theory correctly predicted the results. Which theory should we trust more and why?"

I remember Eliezer said he thought he had an answer to the question but was going to wait before posting it. I've since lost the post. Does anyone remember what post this is or whether anyone ever gave a really good formal answer?

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 05 August 2010 11:04:57PM 2 points [-]

Here's the post

Comment author: sketerpot 05 August 2010 06:46:26PM 1 point [-]

How valuable was each experiment? If you make a theory after ten experiments, then you could design the next ten experiments to be very specific to the theory: if the theory is right, they come out one way, and they should come out a very different way if the theory is wrong.

It's like writing test-cases for software: once you know what exactly you're testing, you can write test cases that aim at any potential weak spots, in a deliberate and targeted attempt to break it. So if we're assuming that these scientists are actual people (rather than really hypothetical abstractions), I would give more credence to the guy who did ten experiments, formulated a theory, and did ten more experiments, iff those later ten experiments look like they were designed to give new information and really stress-test the theory.

If we're talking about the exact same 20 experiments, then I would generally favor doing maybe 13 experiments, making a theory, and then doing the other 7, to avoid overfitting. Or split the experiments up into two sets of ten, and have two scientists each look at ten of the experiments, make a theory, then test it with the other ten. This kind of thinking would have killed Ptolemy's theory of epicycles, which is a classic case of overcomplicating the theory to match your observations.

I know that's hardly a formal answer, but I think the original question was oversimplifying.

Comment author: gwern 05 August 2010 05:42:49AM 3 points [-]

I remember vaguely one discussion of Bayesianism vs. frequentism, where the frequentists held that a study in which the experimenters resolved to keep making observations until they observed Foo X times (for a total of X times and Y total observations) must be treated statistically different from a study where the experimenters resolved to make Y total observations but wound up X times observing Foo; while from the Bayesian perspective, these studies, with their identical objective facts, ought to be treated the same.

Does this sound like it?

Comment author: [deleted] 05 August 2010 01:09:26AM 2 points [-]

"An Alien God" was recently re-posted on the stardestroyer.net "Science Logic and Morality" forum. You may find the resulting discussion interesting.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=144148&start=0

Comment author: ABranco 05 August 2010 03:42:27AM *  1 point [-]

Interesting article: http://danariely.com/2010/08/02/how-we-view-people-with-medical-labels/

One reason why it's a good idea someone with OCD (or for that matter, Asperger, psychosis, autism, paranoia, schizophrenia — whatever) should make sure new acquaintances know of his/her condition:

I suppose that being presented by a third party, as in the example, should make a difference when compared to self-labeling (which may sound like excusing oneself)?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 04 August 2010 07:37:53AM 4 points [-]

I think one of the other reasons many people are uncomfortable with cryonics is that they imagine their souls being stuck-- they aren't getting the advantages of being alive or of heaven.

Comment author: Nisan 06 August 2010 06:00:55PM 4 points [-]

In all honesty, I suspect another reason people are uncomfortable with cryonics is that they don't like being cold.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 03 August 2010 11:11:35PM *  13 points [-]

In his bio over at Overcoming Bias, Robin Hanson writes:

I am addicted to “viewquakes”, insights which dramatically change my world view.

So am I. I suspect you are too, dear reader. I asked Robin how many viewquakes he had and what caused them, but haven't gotten a response yet. But I must know! I need more viewquakes. So I propose we share our own viewquakes with each other so that we all know where to look for more.

I'll start. I've had four major viewquakes, in roughly chronological order:

  • (micro)Economics - Starting with a simple approximation of how humans behave yields a startlingly effective theory in a wide range of contexts.
  • Bayesianism - I learned how to think
  • Yudkowskyan/Humean Metaethics - Making the move from Objective theories of morality to Subjectively Objective theories of morality cleared up a large degree of confusion in my map.
  • Evolution - This is a two part quake: evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology. The latter is extremely helpful for explaining some of the behavior that economic theory misses and for understanding the inputs into economic theory (i.e., preferences).
Comment author: ABranco 05 August 2010 04:02:56AM *  5 points [-]

I've had some dozens of viewquakes, most minors, although it's hard to evaluate it in hindsight now that I take them for granted.

Some are somewhat commonplace here: Bayesianism, map–territory relations, evolution etc.

One that I always feel people should be shouting Eureka — and when they are not impressed I assume that this is old news to them (and is often not, as I don't see it reflected in their actions) — is the Curse of Knowledge: it's hard to be a tapper. I feel that being aware of it dramatically improved my perceptions in conversation. I also feel that if more people were aware of it, misunderstandings would be far less common.

Maybe worth a post someday.

Comment author: RobinZ 05 August 2010 08:33:02PM 1 point [-]
Comment author: byrnema 05 August 2010 04:30:14AM *  8 points [-]

I can see how the Curse of Knowledge could be a powerful idea. I will dwell on it for a while -- especially the example given about JFK, as an example of a type of application that would be useful in my own life. (To remember to describe things using broad strokes that are universally clear, rather than technical and accurate,in contexts where persuasion and fueling interest is most important.)

For me, one of the main viewquakes of my life was a line I read from a little book of Kalil Gibran poems:

Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.

It seemed to be a hammer that could be applied to everything.. Whenever I was unhappy about something, I thought about the problem a while until I identified a misconception. I fixed the misconception ("I'm not the smartest person in graduate school"; "I'm not as kind as I thought I was"; "That person won't be there for me when I need them") by assimilating the truth the pain pointed me towards, and the pain would dissipate. (Why should I expect graduate school to be easy? I'll just work harder. Kindness is what you actually do, not how you expect you'll feel. That person is fun to hang out with, but I'll need to find some closer friends.) After each disappointment, I felt stronger and the problem just bounced off me, without my being in denial about anything.

The "technique" failed me when a good friend of mine died. There was a lot of pain, and I tried to identify the truth that was cutting though, but I couldn't find one. Where did my friend go? There is a part of my brain, I realized, that simply cannot except on an emotional level that people are material. I believe that they are (I don't believe in a soul or an afterlife) but I simply couldn't connect the essence of my friend with 'gone'. If there was a truth there, it couldn't find a place in my mind.

This seems like a tangent. .. but just to demonstrate it's not all-powerful.

Comment author: ABranco 05 August 2010 10:04:42AM *  4 points [-]

Remarkable quote, thank you.

Reminded me of the Anorexic Hermit Crab Syndrome:

The key to pursuing excellence is to embrace an organic, long-term learning process, and not to live in a shell of static, safe mediocrity. Usually, growth comes at the expense of previous comfort or safety. The hermit crab is a colorful example of a creature that lives by this aspect of the growth process (albeit without our psychological baggage). As the crab gets bigger, it needs to find a more spacious shell. So the slow, lumbering creature goes on a quest for a new home. If an appropriate new shell is not found quickly, a terribly delicate moment of truth arises. A soft creature that is used to the protection of built-in armor must now go out into the world, exposed to predators in all its mushy vulnerability. That learning phase in between shells is where our growth can spring from. Someone stuck with an entity theory of intelligence is like an anorexic hermit crab, starving itself so it doesn't grow to have to find a new shell. —Josh Waitzkin, The Art of Learning

Comment author: fiddlemath 05 August 2010 06:00:49AM 4 points [-]

Sounds like the illusion of transparency. We've got that post around. ;)

On the other hand, the tapper/listener game is a very evocative instance.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 04 August 2010 08:06:13AM 1 point [-]
Comment author: utilitymonster 03 August 2010 07:09:27PM *  5 points [-]

If you want to eliminate hindsight bias, write down some reasons that you think justify your judgment.

Those who consider the likelihood of an event after it has occurred exaggerate their likelihood of having been able to predict that event in advance. We attempted to eliminate this hindsight bias among 194 neuropsychologists. Foresight subjects read a case history and were asked to estimate the probability of three different diagnoses. Subjects in each of the three hindsight groups were told that one of the three diagnoses was correct and were asked to state what probability they would have assigned to each diagnosis if they were making the original diagnosis. Foresight-reasons and hindsight-reasons subjects performed the same task as their foresight and hindsight counterparts, except they had to list one reason why each of the possible diagnoses might be correct. The frequency of subjects succumbing to the hindsight bias was lower in the hindsight-reasons groups than in the hindsight groups not asked to list reasons.

ARKES, H.R., et al., 1988. Eliminating the hindsight bias. Journal of applied psychology.

Comment author: Alex_Altair 03 August 2010 08:53:48PM 3 points [-]

What's the policy on User pages in the wiki? Can I write my own for the sake of people having a reference when they reply to my posts, or are they only for somewhat accomplished contributers?

Comment author: Blueberry 04 August 2010 01:09:41AM 3 points [-]

I can't imagine any reason why it would be a problem to make a User page. Go ahead.

Comment author: WrongBot 04 August 2010 12:53:55AM 2 points [-]

I haven't seen any sort of policy articulated. I just sort of went for it, and haven't gotten any complaints yet. Personally, I'd love to see more people with wiki user pages, since the LW site itself doesn't have much in the way of profile features.

Comment author: Torben 03 August 2010 06:51:08PM 2 points [-]

In an argument with a philosopher, I used Bayesian updating as an argument. Guy's used to debating theists and was worried it wasn't bulletproof. Somewhat akin to how, say, the sum of angles of a triangle only equals 180 in Euclidian geometry.

My question: what are the fundamental assumptions of Bayes theorem in particular and probability theory in general? Are any of these assumptions immediate candidates for worry?

Comment author: cousin_it 03 August 2010 07:48:27PM *  4 points [-]

If you're talking about math, Bayes' theorem is true and that's the end of that. If you're talking about degrees of belief that real people hold - especially if you want to convince your opponent to update in a specific direction because Bayes' theorem says so - I'd advise to use another strategy. Going meta like "you must be persuaded by these arguments because blah blah blah" gives you less bang per buck than upgrading the arguments.

Comment author: mkehrt 03 August 2010 09:46:13PM 1 point [-]

What kind of math do you know in where things can be "true, and that's the end of that"? In math, things should be provable from a known set of axioms, not chosen to be true because they feel right. Change the axioms, and you get different result.

Intuition is a good guide for finding a proof, and in picking axioms, but not much more than that. And intuitively true axioms can easily result in inconsistent systems.

The questions, "what axioms do I need to accept to prove Bayes' Theorem?", "Why should I believe these axioms reflect the physical universe"? and "What proof techniques do I need to prove the theorem?" are very relevant to deciding whether to accept Bayes' Theorem as a good model of the universe.

Comment author: satt 03 August 2010 09:20:27PM 3 points [-]

Bayes's theorem follows almost immediately from the ordinary definition of conditional probability, which I think is itself so reassuringly intuitive that no one who accepts the use of probabilities would worry about it (except perhaps in the corner case where the denominator's zero).

Comment author: jimrandomh 03 August 2010 07:28:10PM 4 points [-]

Jaynes' book PT:LoS has a good chapter on this, where he derives Bayes' theorem from simple assumptions (use of numbers to represent plausibility, consistency between paths that compute the same value, continuity, and agreement with common sense qualitative reasoning). The assumptions are sound.

Note that the validity of Bayes' theorem is a separate question from the validity of any particular set of prior probabilities, which is on much shakier ground.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 03 August 2010 07:23:32AM *  1 point [-]

As an alternative to trying to figure out what you'd want if civilization fell apart, are there ways to improve how civilization deals with disasters?

If a first world country were swatted hard by a tsunami or comparable disaster, what kind of prep, tech, or social structures might help more than what we've got now if they were there in advance?

Comment author: Pavitra 03 August 2010 05:28:02AM 1 point [-]

Has there ever been a practical proof-of-concept system, even a toy one, for futarchy? Not just a "bare" prediction market, but actually tying the thing directly to policy.

If not, I suggest a programming nomic (aka codenomic) for this purpose.

If you're not familiar with the concept of nomic, it's a little tricky to explain, but there's a live one here in ECMAScript/Javascript, and an old copy of the PerlNomic codebase here. (There's also a scholarly article [PDF] on PerlNomic, for those interested.)

Also, if you're not familiar with the concept of nomic, you don't read enough Hofstadter.

Comment author: hegemonicon 02 August 2010 12:44:21PM 20 points [-]

The game of Moral High Ground (reproduced completely below):

At last it is time to reveal to an unwitting world the great game of Moral High Ground. Moral High Ground is a long-playing game for two players. The following original rules are for one M and one F, but feel free to modify them to suit your player setup:

  1. The object of Moral High Ground is to win.

  2. Players proceed towards victory by scoring MHGPs (Moral High Ground Points). MHGPs are scored by taking the conspicuously and/or passive-aggressively virtuous course of action in any situation where culpability is in dispute.

(For example, if player M arrives late for a date with player F and player F sweetly accepts player M's apology and says no more about it, player F receives the MHGPs. If player F gets angry and player M bears it humbly, player M receives the MHGPs.)

  1. Point values are not fixed, vary from situation to situation and are usually set by the person claiming them. So, in the above example, forgiving player F might collect +20 MHGPs, whereas penitent player M might collect only +10.

  2. Men's MHG scores reset every night at midnight; women's roll over every day for all time. Therefore, it is statistically highly improbable that a man can ever beat a woman at MHG, as the game ends only when the relationship does.

  3. Having a baby gives a woman +10,000 MHG points over the man involved and both parents +5,000 MHG points over anyone without children.

My ex-bf and I developed Moral High Ground during our relationship, and it has given us years of hilarity. Straight coupledom involves so much petty point-scoring anyway that we both found we were already experts.

By making a private joke out of incredibly destructive gender programming, MHG releases a great deal of relationship stress and encourages good behavior in otherwise trying situations, as when he once cycled all the way home and back to retrieve some forgotten concert tickets "because I couldn't let you have the Moral High Ground points". We are still the best of friends.

Play and enjoy!

From Metafilter

Comment author: Yoreth 04 August 2010 04:58:16AM 1 point [-]

But apparently it still wasn't enough to keep them together...

Comment author: Blueberry 04 August 2010 05:58:42AM 2 points [-]

Not all relationships need to last forever, and it's not necessarily a failure if one doesn't.

Comment author: wedrifid 04 August 2010 06:17:44AM 1 point [-]

But apparently it still wasn't enough to keep them together...

Yoreth may subtract 50 MHG points from hegemonicon but also loses 15 himself.

Comment author: Eneasz 02 August 2010 05:21:48PM *  8 points [-]

An ex-English Professor and ex-Cop, George Thompson, who now teaches a method he calls "Verbal Judo". Very reminiscent of Eliezer's Bayesian Dojo, this is a primer on rationalist communications techniques, focusing on defensive & redirection tactics. http://fora.tv/2009/04/10/Verbal_Judo_Diffusing_Conflict_Through_Conversation

Comment author: sketerpot 07 August 2010 12:10:12AM 14 points [-]

I wrote up some notes on this, because there's no transcript and it's good information. Let's see if I can get the comment syntax to cooperate here.

How to win in conversations, in general.

Never get angry. Stay calm, and use communication tactically to achieve your goals. Don't communicate naturally; communicate tactically. If you get upset, you are weakened.

How to deflect.

To get past an unproductive and possibly angry conversation, you need to deflect the unproductive bluster and get down to the heart of things: goals, and how to achieve them. Use a sentence of the form:

"[Acknowledge what the other guy said], but/however/and [insert polite, goal-centered language here]."

You spring past what the other person said, and then recast the conversation in your own terms. Did he say something angry, meant to upset you? Let it run off you like water, and move on to what you want the conversation to be about. This disempowers him and puts you in charge.

How to motivate people.

There's a secret to motivating people, whether they're students, co-workers, whatever. To motivate someone, raise his expectations of himself. Don't put people down; raise them up. When you want to reprimand someone for not living up to your expectations, mention the positive first. Raise his expectations of himself.

Empathy

To calm somebody down, or get him to do what you want, empathy is the key. Empathy, the ability to see through the eyes of another, is one of the greatest powers that humans have. It gives you power over people, of a kind that they won't get mad about. Understand the other guy, and then think for him as he ought to think. The speaker worked as a police officer, so most of the people he dealt with were under the influence of something. Maybe they were drugged, or drunk; maybe they were frightened, or outraged. Whatever it is, it clouds their judgement; be the levelheaded one and help them think clearly. Empathy is what you need for this.

How to interrupt someone.

Use the most powerful sentence in the English language: "Let me see if I understand what you just said." It shuts anybody up, without pissing them off, and they'll listen. Even if they're hopping mad and were screaming their lungs out at you a minute ago, they'll listen. Use this sentence, and then paraphrase what you understand them as saying. When you paraphrase, that lets you control the conversation. You get to put their point of view in your own words, and in doing so, you calm them down and sieze control of the conversation.

How to be a good boss.

This was a talk at Colombia University business school; people came to learn how to be good bosses. And the secret is that if you're a boss, don't focus directly on your own career; focus on lifting up the people under you. Do this, and they will lift you up with them. To be powerful in a group setting, you must disappear. Put your own ego aside, don't worry about who gets the credit, and focus on your goals.

How to discipline effectively.

This is his biggest point. The secret of good discipline is to use language disinterestedly. You can show anger, condescension, irritation, etc., OR you can discipline somebody. You can't do both at the same time. If you show anger when disciplining someone, you give them an excuse to be angry, and you destroy your own effectiveness. Conversely, if you want to express anger, then don't let punishment even enter the conversation. Keep these separate.

How to deal with someone who says no.

There are five stages to this. Try the first one; if it fails, go to the next one, and so on. Usually you won't have to go past the first one or two.

  1. Ask. Be polite. Interrogative tone. "Sir, will you please step out of the car?" This usually works, and the conversation ends here.

  2. Tell him why. Declarative tone. This gives you authority, it's a sign of respect, and it gives the other guy a way of saving face. It builds a context for what you're asking. If asking failed, explaining usually works. "I see an open liquor bottle in your cup-holder, and I'm required by law to search your vehicle. For our safety, I need you to step out of the car."

  3. Create and present options. There are four secrets for this:

    • Voice: friendly and respectful.

    • Always list good options first ("You can go home tonight, have dinner with your family, sleep in your own bed."). Then the bad options ("If you don't get out of this car, the law says you're going to jail overnight, and you'll get your car towed, and they'll charge you like 300 bucks."). Then remind him of the good options, to get the conversation back to what you want him to do. ("I just need you to get out of your car, let me have a look around, and we'll be done in a few minutes.")

    • Be specific. Paint a mental picture for people. Vivid imagery. WIIFM: What's In It For Me? Appeal to the other guy's self-interest. It's not about you; it's about him.

  4. Confirm noncompliance. "Is there anything I can say to get you to cooperate, and step out of the car for me, so you don't go to jail?" Give them a way to save face.

  5. Act -- Disengage or escalate. This is the part where you either give up or get serious. In the "get out of the car" example, this is the part where you arrest him. Very seldom does it get to this stage, if you did the previous stages right.

If you want more on verbal judo, watch the video; he's a good speaker.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 07 August 2010 12:19:20AM 3 points [-]

Thank you for writing this up.

The one thing I wondered about was whether the techniques for getting compliance interfere with getting information. For example, what if someone who isn't consenting to a search is actually right about the law?

Comment author: sketerpot 07 August 2010 02:33:20AM 1 point [-]

The thing that bothers me about the talk is that most of it makes the assumption that you're being calm and rational, that you're right, and that whoever you're talking to is irrational and needs to be verbally judo'd into compliance. Sometimes that's the case, but most of the techniques don't really apply to situations where you're dealing with another calm, sane person as an equal.

Comment author: mattnewport 07 August 2010 12:14:34AM 2 points [-]

Does the talk provide any evidence for the efficacy of the tactics?

Comment author: sketerpot 07 August 2010 02:24:33AM 1 point [-]

The speaker has a whole career of experience dealing with people who are irrational because they're drunk, angry, frightened, or some combination of the above. He says this stuff is what he does, and that it works great. That's anecdotal, but it's about the strongest kind of anecdotal evidence it's possible to get.

It would be nice if someone did a properly controlled study on this.