Clippy comments on Conflicts Between Mental Subagents: Expanding Wei Dai's Master-Slave Model - Less Wrong

46 Post author: Yvain 04 August 2010 09:16AM

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Comment author: byrnema 04 August 2010 03:26:31PM *  3 points [-]

The idea of C being a public relations agency resonates for me. I prefer the C/U dichotomy to the superego/ego dichotomy because whereas in both cases it is U or the ego that represents my real self, the first theory has U in agent-control and trying to mollify C, the second theory has the superego in agent-control and embarrassed by the ego. I feel like the first theory more closely fits what I experience, especially during indecision conflicts. Without any guilt, I'll ask, what is the minimum I need to do to feel external-world/socially comfortable here? Because my main goal is be true to my 'self'. Also, morality doesn't consistently break evenly on one side or the other in these conflicts.

So I disagree with the idea that everything altruistic and good about a person goes in C, and that U is an ugly, selfish animal. I only agree that U is socially unacceptable. For one thing, empathy is a basic, natural emotion and society teaches us to repress its natural expression as much as it teaches us to express it in fake ways. C does feel like a liar (I think this is because U doesn't understand and isn't convinced by propositional arguments), but C needn't actually be lying, or representing a better or worse aspect of yourself. Its just useful. (Here on Less Wrong, I feel like we are all 'U's trying to double-check what C is doing and make it more correct.)

I agree with Tim Tyler, that consciousness containing the things you need to be able to reflect on in order to function properly would be more basic way of delineating the conscious mind. Combining this with the idea of C as the public relations agent, this turns into: C is in charge of everything U doesn't do naturally on its own, in order to relate to and succeed in the outside world. If U can't relate to people starving on other continents, C uses logical reasoning to try to care and develop an identity as someone who would care. If U wants to sit down next to the beggar on the street and help him gather resources to survive and feel good, C has the reasons why that isn't practical or good for U in the long run. Indeed, C is our agent, especially our public relations agent.

Comment author: Clippy 05 August 2010 08:55:13PM *  10 points [-]

About empathy: what is a good way for someone who experiences less empathy to relate to more normal humans?

About lying: I do not regard it as helpful to consider whether C is lying. Instead, one should ask whether there exists an isomorphism between C's purported beliefs and an accurate model of the person's whole mind, and if so, what that isomorphism is.

As an example from my experience, consider the exchange:

"Oh, hi, [given name]. How are you?"
"Oh, fine, thanks."

The second person, despite not being "fine" by more objective metrics, need not be regarded as lying, so long as "Oh, fine, thanks", is simply taken to mean "I recognize that you have taken effort to express concern to me, and would like to reciprocate by showing friendliness and not bothering you with more details about myself than are appropriate for our relationship."

Instead of asking such a nebulous, abstract question as, "Is the second person lying by claiming to be fine?" I contend that one should focus on the question of how those statements should map to a model of reality, and if there exists a concise description for how it does so.