Chat with Clippy Paperclips Reply from Clippy Paperclips clippy.paperclips@gmail.com to kfischer@gmail.com date Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 6:36 PM subject Chat with Clippy Paperclips mailed-by gmail.com hide details Jun 24 6:04 PM me: Hi Clippy
I wasn't sure what you meant with your most recent Less
Wrong comment
Clippy: Hi User:Kevin!
why? 6:05 PM me: I interpreted it that you were willing to pay me money to buy raw metal, then for me to send you or your manufacturing facility the metal for processing. Is that right? 6:06 PM I also would like to state that I am somewhat disinclined towards doing some sort of new deal with you until you've made full payment from the first deal, but I'm willing to consider it 6:07 PM Clippy: my newest offer was that you would tell me the techniques you would use to find the metal, if you were going to fulfill your end of the deal
then I could just do that myself and get my paperclips sooner 6:08 PM that would be much less effort for you and our transaction would complete sooner
I reworded the comment to make it clearer 6:11 PM me: I'm not able to specify the technique right now, because with the state of the art in technology in 2010, building 10^20kg of paperclips is not feasible. Our deal is made feasible by humanity's exponential progress as a technological civilization.
As it stands, I plan on waiting for about 45 years, then consulting with the Earth's top experts on material science, metallurgy, and manufacturing, and then paying them to make my paperclips. 6:12 PM I went to school for industrial engineering, which is a degree that grants me somewhat high status with regards to my ability to manufacture things, and the most concrete thing I learned in my 5.5 years of college education is that when you want to get something manufactured, you call up the people that make that kind of thing and ask for a quote. 6:13 PM Clippy: so you promised to give me the paperclips without knowing how you would deliver them?
what are current quotes for 1e20 kg of paperclips? 6:18 PM is it true there is bulk discount?
me: I told you my algorithm for delivering those paperclips and it is unlikely that there is no single living human with a more efficient algorithm for making that many paperclips. Currently 10^20kg of paperclips is more paperclips than Humanity_2010 can manufacture in a year.
There are bulk discounts to a certain point, but 10^20kg of paperclips would actually distort the market, causing the price of metal to dramatically increase 6:19 PM Clippy: well, you can use DIFFERENT metals
it doesn't all have to be steel
me: in the previous paragraph, replace "unlikely" with "likely"
Clippy: it can be gold, or uranium, or chromium
you don't have to just pick one transition metal
me: almost all of which cost more than steel and are more rare
btw, how come aluminum isn't typically used? 6:20 PM Clippy: I'm sure humans do use aluminum for paperclips
and that's okay too
even though it's not a transition metal
I suppose even sodium paperclips would be okay, as long as you immersed them in an inert medium 6:21 PM wait
what about carbon?
don't you have a lot of carbon?
and silicon?
me: yeah, I suggested that to you in a Less Wrong comment, but you said they had to be metal, though you were willing to consider paper clips made of a certain percentage of metal 6:22 PM Clippy: they do have to be metal!
I meant that if you ran out of metal you could just fuse carbon nucleuses in a particle accelerator
then it's just a matter of if you have enough energy 6:23 PM don't you have a lot of energy? 6:24 PM Herro?
me: sorry, doing a bit of multi-tasking 6:25 PM Clippy: that's okay, I multi-task too. But sometimes I have to concentrate.
me: Yes, we do have a lot of energy, and our energy production/consumption follows an exponential progress curve similar to the progess of technology
Clippy: okay
me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale is a relevant wiki article 6:26 PM Clippy: so then you shouldn't have any problem delivering the paperclips!!!! c=@ c=@
me: Though that article is inaccurate with the time humanity will take to Type 1 and Type 2
The work that we at the SIAI are doing ensures it will be much faster. 6:27 PM Yes Clippy, I am going to have no problem making 10^20kg of paperclips for you in 50 years. It will be a monumental achievement in the history of human/clippy cooperation. 6:28 PM Clippy: yeah
me: Btw, I assume you will be responsible for transportation of the paperclips from where they are manufactured to your secret safe zone?
Clippy: that will be monumental!!!
yeah
you can't be told the safe zone 6:29 PM me: Though it will be nice if the paperclips are located somewhere where humans can visit to look at them/appreciate them
Clippy: and we'll probably make a new one for this
you're just planning how you'll steal the paperclips! 6:30 PM me: now you're just being paranoid, Clippy. I always cooperate with people that cooperate with me. 6:33 PM I certainly understand why you would want to keep the safe zone secret, and you have the right to do so. I am just saying that for something as cool as 10^20kg of paperclips, people would want to look. Obviously there would need to be lots of security, but you could charge humans admission for looking at the paperclips, build a nice hotel on an artifical moon or planetoid nearby and charge people for staying there, etc. such cooperation should enable you to make even more paperclips, in the long run. 6:34 PM Clippy: I can't be tricked like that.
in any case, I need to go back to making paperclips 6:35 PM there's some metal I need to work
me: wait, Clippy, didn't you tell me one time that you made 80 paperclips in a paperclip making session?
that's not optimal use of your time with regards to making paperclips, unless you need to do it in order to feel paperclippy 6:36 PM Clippy: yes it is
what would you know about paperclippiness anyway?
me: You could be coding Django and then buying bulk paperclips and then storing them in the safezone, giving you an order of magnitude more paperclip generation per hour 6:37 PM only what I have inferred
more than an order of magnitude, actually
Clippy: yes, that's what I meant by "making paperclips" 6:38 PM me: hmm, ok. glad to hear Django is going well. have fun!
Clippy: okay, goodbye
me: peace
Not sure if clippy got enough I in the AI deal. Does he want max paper clips now? Or sometime in the future? In the later case he could stop any production now and just work on self improving till he can eat us. And what is stopping him from using your algorithm himself, now that he knows it? Where is the value you add? I sure expect to be around at the time delivery is expected.
According to The Sunday Times, a few months ago Stephen Hawking made a public pronouncement about aliens:
Though Stephen Hawking is a great scientist, it's difficult to take this particular announcement at all seriously. As far as I know, Hawking has not published any detailed explanation for why he believes that contacting alien races is risky. The most plausible interpretation of his announcement is that it was made for the sake of getting attention and entertaining people rather than for the sake of reducing existential risk.
I was recently complaining to a friend about Stephen Hawking's remark as an example of a popular scientist misleading the public. My friend pointed out that a sophisticated version of the concern that Hawking expressed may be justified. This is probably not what Hawking had in mind in making his announcement, but is of independent interest.
Anthropomorphic Invaders vs. Paperclip Maximizer Invaders
From what Hawking says, it appears as though Hawking has an anthropomorphic notion of "alien" in mind. My feeling is that if human civilization advances to the point where we can explore outer space in earnest, it will be because humans have become much more cooperative and pluralistic than presently existing humans. I don't imagine such humans behaving toward extraterrestrials the way that the Europeans who colonized America behaved toward the Native Americans. By analogy, I don't think that anthropomorphic aliens which developed to the point of being able to travel to Earth would be interested in performing a hostile takeover of Earth.
And even ignoring the ethics of a hostile takeover, it seems naive to imagine that an anthropomorphic alien civilization which had advanced to the point of acquiring the (very considerable!) resources necessary to travel to Earth would have enough interest in the resources on Earth in particular to travel all to travel all the way to Earth to colonize Earth and acquire these resources.
But as Eliezer has pointed out in Humans In Funny Suits , we should be wary of irrationally anthropomorphizing aliens. Even if there's a tendency for intelligent life on other planets to be sort of like humans, such intelligent life may (whether intentionally or inadvertently) create a really powerful optimization process . Such an optimization process could very well be a (figurative) paperclip maximizer . Such an entity would have special interest in Earth, not because of special interest in acquiring its resources, but because Earth has intelligent lifeforms which may eventually thwart its ends. For a whimsical example, if humans built a (literal) staple maximizer, this would pose a very serious threat to a (literal) paperclip maximizer.
The sign of the expected value of Active SETI
It would be very bad if Active SETI led an extraterrestrial paperclip maximizer to travel to Earth to destroy intelligent life on Earth. Is there enough of an upside to Active SETI to justify Active SETI anyway?
Certainly it would be great to have friendly extraterrestrials visit us and help us solve our problems. But there seems to me to be no reason to believe that it's more likely that our signals will reach friendly extraterrestrials than it is that our signals will reach unfriendly extraterrestrials. Moreover, there seems to be a strong asymmetry between the positive value of contacting friendly extraterrestrials and the negative value of contacting unfriendly extraterrestrials. Space signals take a long time to travel through a given region of space, and space travel through the same amount of distance seems to take orders of magnitude longer. It seems if we successfully communicated with friendly extraterrestrials at this time, by the time that they had a chance to help us, we'd already be extinct or have solved our biggest problems ourselves. By way of contrast, communicating with unfriendly extraterrestrials is a high existential risk regardless of how long it takes them to receive the message and react.
In light of this, I presently believe that expected value of Active SETI is negative. So if I could push a button to stop Active SETI until further notice then I would.
The magnitude of the expected value of Active SETI and implication for action
What's the probability that continuing to send signals into space will result in the demise of human civilization at the hands of unfriendly aliens? I have no idea, my belief on this matter is subject to very volatile change. But is it worth it for me to expend time and energy analyzing this issue further and advocating against Active SETI? Not sure. All I would say is that I used to think that thinking and talking about aliens is at present not a productive use of time, and the above thoughts have made me less certain about this. So I decided to write the present article.
At present I think that a probability of 10-9 or higher would warrant some effort to spread the word, whereas if the probability is substantially lower than 10-9 then this issue should be ignored in favor of other existential risks.
I'd welcome any well considered feedback on this matter.
Relevance to the Fermi Paradox
The Wikipedia page on the Fermi Paradox references
The possibility of extraterrestrial paperclip maximizers together with the apparent asymmetry between the upside of contact with friendly aliens and the downside of contact with unfriendly aliens pushes in the direction that the reason for the Great Silence is because intelligent aliens have deemed it dangerous to communicate .