timtyler comments on Taking Ideas Seriously - Less Wrong

51 Post author: Will_Newsome 13 August 2010 04:50PM

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Comment author: rwallace 13 August 2010 05:38:46PM 26 points [-]

Human thought is by default compartmentalized for the same good reason warships are compartmentalized: it limits the spread of damage.

A decade or thereabouts ago, I read a book called Darwin's Black Box, whose thesis was that while gradual evolution could work for macroscopic features of organisms, it could not explain biochemistry, because the intricate molecular machinery of life did not have viable intermediate stages. The author is a professional biochemist, and it shows; he's really done his homework, and he describes many specific cases in great detail and carefully sets out his reasons for claiming gradual evolution could not have worked.

Oh, and I was able to demolish every one of his arguments in five minutes of armchair thought.

How did that happen? How does a professional put so much into such carefully constructed arguments that end up being so flimsy a layman can trivially demolish them? Well I didn't know anything else about the guy until I ran a Google search just now, but it confirms what I found, and most Less Wrong readers will find, to be the obvious explanation.

If he had only done what most scientists in his position do, and said "I have faith in God," and kept that compartmentalized from his work, he would have avoided a gross professional error.

Of course that particular error could have been avoided by being an atheist, but that is not a general solution, because we are not infallible. We are going to end up taking on some mistaken ideas; that's part of life. You cite the Singularity as your primary example, and it is a good one, for it is a mistaken idea, and one that is immensely harmful if not compartmentalized. But really, it seems unlikely there is a single human being of significant intellect who does not hold at least one bad idea that would cause damage if taken seriously.

We should think long and hard before we throw away safety mechanisms, and compartmentalization is one of the most important ones.

Comment author: timtyler 13 August 2010 08:59:13PM *  0 points [-]

The author was an idiot. I too found the fatal flaw in about five minutes - in a bookshop.

IMO, the mystery here is not the author's fail, but how long the "evolution" fans banged on about it for - explaining the mistake over and over and over again.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 August 2010 02:41:00PM 9 points [-]

If you don't read creationists, it looks like there aren't any, and it looks like "evolution fans" are banging on about nothing. But, in reality, there are creationists, and they were also banging on in praise of the book. David Klinghoffer, for instance (prominent creationist with a blog.)

Comment author: JoshuaZ 13 August 2010 09:11:20PM *  10 points [-]

IMO, the mystery here is not the author's fail, but how long the "evolution" fans banged on about it for - explaining the mistake over and over and over again.

Because lots of people (either not as educated or not as intelligent) didn't realize how highly flawed the book was. And when someone is being taken seriously enough that they are an expert witness in a federal trial, there's a real need to respond. Also, there were people like me who looked into Behe's arguments in detail simply because it didn't seem likely that someone with his intelligence and education would say something that was so totally lacking in a point, so the worry was that one was missing something. Of course, there's also the irrational but highly fun aspect of tearing arguments into little tiny pieces. Finally, there's the other irrational aspect that Behe managed to trigger lots of people to react by his being condescending and obnoxious (see for example his exchange with Abbie Smith where he essentially said that no one should listen to her he because he was a prof and she was just a lowly grad student).

Comment author: timtyler 13 August 2010 09:34:16PM *  0 points [-]

Re: "there's also the irrational but highly fun aspect of tearing arguments into little tiny pieces"

I think that was most of it - plus the creationsts were on the other side, and the they got publicly bashed for a long time.

I was left wondering why so many intelligent people wasted so much energy and time on such nonsense for so long.

Dawkins and Dennet have subsequently got into the god bashing. What a waste of talent that is. I call it their "gutter outreach" program.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 14 August 2010 04:28:11PM 7 points [-]

Dawkins and Dennet have subsequently got into the god bashing. What a waste of talent that is. I call it their "gutter outreach" program

Standard beliefs in deities are often connected with a memetic structure that directly encourages irrationalism. Look at the emphasis on "faith" and on mysterious answers. If one is interested in improving rationality, removing the beliefs that directly encourage irrationality is an obvious tactic. Religious beliefs are also responsible for a lot of deaths and resources taken up by war and similar problems. Removing those beliefs directly increases utility. Religion is also in some locations (such as much of the US) functioning as a direct barrier to scientific research and education (creationism and opposition to stem cell research are good examples). Overall, part of why Dawkins has spent so much time dealing with religion seems to be that he sees religion as a major barrier for people actually learning about the interesting stuff.

Finally, note that Dawkins has not just spent time on dealing with religious beliefs. He's criticized homeopathy, dousing, various New Age healing ideas, and many others beliefs.

Comment author: timtyler 14 August 2010 06:43:23PM *  -1 points [-]

I figure those folk should be leading from the front, not dredging the guttering.

Anyone can dispense with the ridiculous nonsense put forth by the religious folk - and they do so regularly.

If anything, Dennet and Dawkins add to the credibility of the idiots by bothering to engage with them.

If the religious nutcases' aim was to waste the time of these capable science writers - and effectively take them out of productive service - then it is probably "mission acomplished" for them.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 15 August 2010 04:31:58PM 4 points [-]

those folk should be leading from the front, not dredging the guttering.

So what would constitute leading from the front in your view?

If the religious nutcases' aim was to waste the time of these capable science writers - and effectively take them out of productive service - then it is probably "mission acomplished" for them.

But there are a lot of science writers now. Carl Zimmer and Rebecca Skloot would be two examples. And the set of people who read about science is not large. If getting people to stop having religious hangups with science will make a larger set of people reading such material how is that not a good thing?

Comment author: timtyler 15 August 2010 04:38:52PM *  0 points [-]

I was much happier with what they were doing before they got sucked into the whirlpool of furious madness and nonsense. Well, "Freedom Evolves" excepted, maybe.

If getting people to stop having religious hangups with science will make a larger set of people reading such material how is that not a good thing?

Your question apparently presumes falsehoods about my views :-(

Comment author: JoshuaZ 15 August 2010 04:46:16PM 0 points [-]

Your question apparently presumes falsehoods about my views :-(

Clarify please? What presumptions am I making that are not accurate?

Comment author: Perplexed 15 August 2010 05:36:15PM 3 points [-]

If I may attempt an interpretation, Tim is saying that the Great Minds should be busy thinking Great Thoughts, and that they should leave the swatting of religious flies to us lesser folk.

Comment author: timtyler 15 August 2010 05:21:59PM *  1 point [-]

Uh, I never claimed that getting people to stop having religious hangups was not a good thing in the first place.