cousin_it comments on Minimum computation and data requirements for consciousness. - Less Wrong

-13 Post author: daedalus2u 23 August 2010 11:53PM

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Comment author: cousin_it 24 August 2010 09:13:53AM *  9 points [-]

The first dubious statement in the post seems to be this:

Because the experience of consciousness is subjective, we can never “know for sure” that an entity is actually experiencing consciousness.

How can you make such a statement about the entire future of science? A couple quotes:

"We may determine their forms, their distances, their bulk and their motions, but we can never know anything about their chemical and mineralogical structure" - Auguste Comte talking about stars in 1835

"Heavier than air flying machines are impossible" - Lord Kelvin, 1895

The second dubious statement comes right after the first:

However there must be certain computational functions that must be accomplished for consciousness to be experienced.

The same question applies: how on Earth do you know that? Where's your evidence? Sharing opinions only gets us so far!

And it just goes downhill from there.

Comment author: daedalus2u 24 August 2010 12:49:03PM 0 points [-]

With all due respect to Lord Kelvin, he personally knew of heavier than air flying machines. We now call them birds. He called them birds too.

Comment author: Perplexed 24 August 2010 12:54:21PM 8 points [-]

I'm not sure he realized they were machines, though.

Comment author: daedalus2u 24 August 2010 01:27:54PM 0 points [-]

Yes, and some people today don't realize that the brain does computations on sensory input in order to accomplish pattern recognition, and without that computation there is no pattern recognition and no perception. Of anything.

Comment author: Perplexed 24 August 2010 02:13:12PM 12 points [-]

I confess, I am lost. It seems we are in an arguments as soldiers situation in which everyone is shooting at everyone else. To recap:

  • You said "we can never “know for sure” that an entity is actually experiencing consciousness". (Incidentally, I agree.)
  • Cousin_it criticised, comparing you to Kelvin.
  • You responded, pointing out that the Kelvin quote is odd, given what we suspect Kelvin knew (Why did you do this?)
  • I suggest the Kelvin quote was maybe not so odd, given his misconceptions (Why did I do this???)
  • You point out that people today (what people?) have misconceptions as severe as Kelvin's.

This is either a rhetorical master stroke, or just random lashing out. I can't tell. I am completely lost. WTF is going on?

Comment author: nawitus 24 August 2010 10:39:56AM 0 points [-]

He is probably talking about the hard problem of consciousness, e.g. whether qualia exists. While it's possible conceptually to have empirical tests for subjective consciousness, it's seems extremely unlikely.

We can already imagine a computational simulation of the brain, and empirical test for qualia seems impossible pretty much by definition. Sure, it's possible to test whether the simulation has self-awareness from a computational point (and it will have that since it's a human brain simulation).

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 24 August 2010 10:47:39AM 2 points [-]

If there is a (physical) cause for qualia, such that qualia occur if and only if that cause is present, and we work out what that cause is, then we have an empirical test for subjective conciousness.

I wouldn't call that, "extremely unlikely".

Comment author: nawitus 24 August 2010 11:44:48AM *  0 points [-]

Yet qualia cannot be measured empirically (atleast that's the consensus), which makes such tests extremely unlikely. And this discussion seems to turn into a regular qualia debate. I'm not sure if that's desirable.

Comment author: WrongBot 25 August 2010 02:26:26AM 1 point [-]

Yet qualia cannot be measured empirically

Yet. No one knows what science doesn't know.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 24 August 2010 12:34:24PM *  0 points [-]

I agree that it's not desirable.