TobyBartels comments on Exploitation and cooperation in ecology, government, business, and AI - Less Wrong

18 Post author: PhilGoetz 27 August 2010 02:27PM

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Comment author: Vladimir_M 27 August 2010 06:46:38PM *  12 points [-]

PhilGoetz:

The Catholic church has a feudalistic organization, and is perhaps not coincidentally richer than any Protestant church, probably even per capita - except for the Mormons, with assets of about $6000/member, whose organizational structure I know little about (read this if interested).

This is a completely inaccurate use of the term "feudalistic." The rigid hierarchy of the Catholic Church is extremely dissimilar to the European medieval social order that's commonly called "feudal," in which local lords had a level of autonomy and autarky unimaginable by modern standards.

A Catholic priest who defies his bishop or other superior will lose his position promptly, and the same will happen to a bishop who defies the pope. Control and discipline are enforced tightly at each level, and the hierarchy is staffed by men from lower levels who get promoted and appointed by the central authority (except for the elective pope, of course, and with some rare peculiar semi-autonomous local institutions due to accidents of history). In contrast, a feudal lord ruled his fief for life as his own property, and left it to his heirs after death -- while his overlord, or even king, had no control whatsoever over his day-to-day affairs, and could only demand the regular tribute. Even in cases of open defiance, it was by no means certain whether the king would be able to get his way. This fragmented world of extreme local autonomy and autarky was the polar opposite of the modern tightly disciplined Catholic hierarchy.

Generally speaking, "feudalism" is one of those terms that are often thrown around casually and without any regard for historical accuracy, to the point where they've become nearly meaningless (kind of like "fascism"). Whenever you feel tempted to use it for the purpose of making historical parallels, you should stop and think carefully whether it makes sense.

Comment author: TobyBartels 27 August 2010 06:54:23PM 1 point [-]

A Catholic priest who defies his bishop or other superior will lose his position promptly, and the same will happen to a bishop who defies the pope.

So really more like a corporation than a feudal empire.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 27 August 2010 07:28:25PM *  0 points [-]

What is a "feudal empire"? Can you give an example?

Comment author: Vladimir_M 27 August 2010 07:55:09PM *  5 points [-]

The most accurate meaning of this term would be a situation where numerous local lords are powerful and autonomous, but there is one among them who commands disproportionately large resources and is capable of raising overwhelmingly powerful military forces, either directly from his own personal domains or from his loyal vassals.

In this situation, any lord who defies the monarch openly can be subdued by sheer military force, so if the monarch successfully advertises his military power and his commitment to lash out whenever provoked, there can be a stable equilibrium where local lords find it in their best interest to be loyal vassals, profess allegiance, and pay their tribute in a timely manner -- and otherwise be left alone to rule their fiefs. Another factor that can strengthen this equilibrium is if the monarch's military power provides protection against an external threat that is too powerful for the lords to handle individually; in such situations, the monarch can be more of a coalition leader than overlord.

Clearly, such an equilibrium is unstable for many reasons. External military threats can disappear, a strong monarch can be succeeded by a weak one who won't be able to insist on his supremacy credibly, local lords can become powerful to the point where defiance seems tempting, a neighboring ruler can offer a better deal for those who switch allegiance to him, several lords can form a coalition too powerful to subdue, and so on. The classic example is the history of the Frankish Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. Occasional exceptionally capable and powerful rulers were able to assert strong personal authority, but their heirs would regularly fail to uphold it.

Comment author: TobyBartels 27 August 2010 09:53:13PM *  1 point [-]

The Holy Roman Empire is the obvious example. But really I was just being careless in writing ‘empire’.