Houshalter comments on Less Wrong: Open Thread, September 2010 - Less Wrong

3 Post author: matt 01 September 2010 01:40AM

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Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 02 September 2010 09:04:37PM *  22 points [-]

It seems to me, based on purely anecdotal experience, that people in this community are unusually prone to feeling that they're stupid if they do badly at something. Scott Adams' The Illusion of Winning might help counteract becoming too easily demotivated.

Let's say that you and I decide to play pool. We agree to play eight-ball, best of five games. Our perception is that what follows is a contest to see who will do something called winning.

But I don't see it that way. I always imagine the outcome of eight-ball to be predetermined, to about 95% certainty, based on who has practiced that specific skill the most over his lifetime. The remaining 5% is mostly luck, and playing a best of five series eliminates most of the luck too.

I've spent a ridiculous number of hours playing pool, mostly as a kid. I'm not proud of that fact. Almost any other activity would have been more useful. As a result of my wasted youth, years later I can beat 99% of the public at eight-ball. But I can't enjoy that sort of so-called victory. It doesn't feel like "winning" anything.

It feels as meaningful as if my opponent and I had kept logs of the hours we each had spent playing pool over our lifetimes and simply compared. It feels redundant to play the actual games.

I see the same thing with tennis, golf, music, and just about any other skill, at least at non-professional levels. And research supports the obvious, that practice is the main determinant of success in a particular field.

As a practical matter, you can't keep logs of all the hours you have spent practicing various skills. And I wonder how that affects our perception of what it takes to be a so-called winner. We focus on the contest instead of the practice because the contest is easy to measure and the practice is not.

Complicating our perceptions is professional sports. The whole point of professional athletics is assembling freaks of nature into teams and pitting them against other freaks of nature. Practice is obviously important in professional sports, but it won't make you taller. I suspect that professional sports demotivate viewers by sending the accidental message that success is determined by genetics.

My recommendation is to introduce eight-ball into school curricula, but in a specific way. Each kid would be required to keep a log of hours spent practicing on his own time, and there would be no minimum requirement. Some kids could practice zero hours if they had no interest or access to a pool table. At the end of the school year, the entire class would compete in a tournament, and they would compare their results with how many hours they spent practicing. I think that would make real the connection between practice and results, in a way that regular schoolwork and sports do not. That would teach them that winning happens before the game starts.

Yes, I know that schools will never assign eight-ball for homework. But maybe there is some kid-friendly way to teach the same lesson.

ETA: I don't mean to say that talent doesn't matter: things such as intelligence matter more than Adams gives them credit for, AFAIK. But I've noticed in many people (myself included) a definite tendency to overvalue intelligence relative to practice.

Comment author: Houshalter 02 September 2010 10:28:40PM 1 point [-]

Yes, I know that schools will never assign eight-ball for homework. But maybe there is some kid-friendly way to teach the same lesson.

Make them play some kind of simplified RPG until they realise the only achievement is how much time they put into doing mindless repetitive tasks.

Comment author: mattnewport 02 September 2010 10:34:37PM 9 points [-]

Make them play some kind of simplified RPG until they realise the only achievement is how much time they put into doing mindless repetitive tasks.

I imagine lots of kids play Farmville already.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 03 September 2010 08:53:06AM *  3 points [-]

Those games don't really improve any sort of skill, though, and neither does anyone expect them to. To teach kids this, you need a game where you as a player pretty much never stop improving, so that having spent more hours on the game actually means you'll beat anyone who has spent less.

Go might work.

Comment author: rwallace 03 September 2010 12:57:16PM 5 points [-]

There are schools that teach Go intensively from an early age, so that a 10-year-old student from one of those schools is already far better than a casual player like me will ever be, and it just keeps going up from there. People don't seem to get tired of it.

Every time I contemplate that, I wish all the talent thus spent, could be spent instead on schools providing similarly intensive teaching in something useful like science and engineering. What could be accomplished if you taught a few thousand smart kids to be dan-grade scientists by age 10 and kept going from there? I think it would be worth finding out.

Comment author: NihilCredo 06 September 2010 01:43:50AM 3 points [-]

A somewhat related, impactful graph.

Of course, human effort and interest is far from perfectly fungible. But your broader point retains a lot of validity.

Comment author: Houshalter 06 September 2010 03:22:36AM -1 points [-]

Yes, but what would it matter if 200 billion hours was spent refining wikipedia? There is only so much knowledge you can pump into it. I don't think that's a fair comparison.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 06 September 2010 10:42:29AM *  3 points [-]

So what else could we also accomplish? I didn't read it as 'wikipedia could be 2,000 times better', but 'we could have 2,000 wikipedia-grade resources'. (Which is probably also not true - we'd run out of low-hanging fruit. Still.)

Comment author: Christian_Szegedy 08 September 2010 07:08:36AM *  2 points [-]

I agree with you. I also think that there are several reasons for that:

First that competitive games are (intellectual or physical sports) easier to select and train for, since the objective function is much clearer.

The other reason is more cultural: if you train your child for something more useful like science or mathematics, then people will say: "Poor kid, do you try to make a freak out of him? Why can't he have a childhood like anyone else?" Traditionally, there is much less opposition against music, art or sport training. Perhaps they are viewed as "fun activities."

Thirdly, it also seems that academic success is the function of more variables: communication skills, motivation, perspective, taste, wisdom, luck etc. So early training will result in much less head start than in a more constrained area like sports or music, where it is almost mandatory for success (age of 10 (even 6) are almost too late in some of those areas to begin seriously)

Comment author: timtyler 08 September 2010 06:41:15AM 0 points [-]

Go is useful, I figure. As games go, it is one of the best. Perhaps computer games will one day surpass it - but, in many ways, that has happened yet.

Comment author: Sniffnoy 03 September 2010 07:32:38PM *  3 points [-]

There's a large difference between the "leveling up" in such games, where you gain new in-game capabilities, and actually getting better, where your in-game capabilities stay the same but you learn to use them more effectively.

ETA: I guess perhaps a better way of saying it is, there's a large difference between the causal chains time->winning, and time->skill->winning.