Wei_Dai comments on Less Wrong: Open Thread, September 2010 - Less Wrong

3 Post author: matt 01 September 2010 01:40AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (610)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 02 September 2010 09:04:37PM *  22 points [-]

It seems to me, based on purely anecdotal experience, that people in this community are unusually prone to feeling that they're stupid if they do badly at something. Scott Adams' The Illusion of Winning might help counteract becoming too easily demotivated.

Let's say that you and I decide to play pool. We agree to play eight-ball, best of five games. Our perception is that what follows is a contest to see who will do something called winning.

But I don't see it that way. I always imagine the outcome of eight-ball to be predetermined, to about 95% certainty, based on who has practiced that specific skill the most over his lifetime. The remaining 5% is mostly luck, and playing a best of five series eliminates most of the luck too.

I've spent a ridiculous number of hours playing pool, mostly as a kid. I'm not proud of that fact. Almost any other activity would have been more useful. As a result of my wasted youth, years later I can beat 99% of the public at eight-ball. But I can't enjoy that sort of so-called victory. It doesn't feel like "winning" anything.

It feels as meaningful as if my opponent and I had kept logs of the hours we each had spent playing pool over our lifetimes and simply compared. It feels redundant to play the actual games.

I see the same thing with tennis, golf, music, and just about any other skill, at least at non-professional levels. And research supports the obvious, that practice is the main determinant of success in a particular field.

As a practical matter, you can't keep logs of all the hours you have spent practicing various skills. And I wonder how that affects our perception of what it takes to be a so-called winner. We focus on the contest instead of the practice because the contest is easy to measure and the practice is not.

Complicating our perceptions is professional sports. The whole point of professional athletics is assembling freaks of nature into teams and pitting them against other freaks of nature. Practice is obviously important in professional sports, but it won't make you taller. I suspect that professional sports demotivate viewers by sending the accidental message that success is determined by genetics.

My recommendation is to introduce eight-ball into school curricula, but in a specific way. Each kid would be required to keep a log of hours spent practicing on his own time, and there would be no minimum requirement. Some kids could practice zero hours if they had no interest or access to a pool table. At the end of the school year, the entire class would compete in a tournament, and they would compare their results with how many hours they spent practicing. I think that would make real the connection between practice and results, in a way that regular schoolwork and sports do not. That would teach them that winning happens before the game starts.

Yes, I know that schools will never assign eight-ball for homework. But maybe there is some kid-friendly way to teach the same lesson.

ETA: I don't mean to say that talent doesn't matter: things such as intelligence matter more than Adams gives them credit for, AFAIK. But I've noticed in many people (myself included) a definite tendency to overvalue intelligence relative to practice.

Comment author: Wei_Dai 02 September 2010 11:51:21PM 1 point [-]

But I've noticed in many people (myself included) a definite tendency to overvalue intelligence relative to practice.

I'm not sure I agree with that. In what areas do you see overvalue of intelligence relative to practice and why do you think there really is overvalue in those areas?

I've noticed for example that people's abilities to make good comments on LW do not seem to improve much with practice and feedback from votes (beyond maybe the first few weeks or so). Does this view represent an overvalue of intelligence?

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 03 September 2010 08:45:02AM *  5 points [-]

In what areas do you see overvalue of intelligence relative to practice and why do you think there really is overvalue in those areas?

I should probably note that my overvaluing of intelligence is more of an alief than a belief. Mostly it shows up if I'm unable to master (or at least get a basic proficiency in) a topic as fast as I'd like to. For instance, on some types of math problems I get quickly demotivated and feel that I'm not smart enough for them, when the actual problem is that I haven't had enough practice on them. This is despite the intellectual knowledge that I could master them, if I just had a bit more practice.

I've noticed for example that people's abilities to make good comments on LW do not seem to improve much with practice and feedback from votes (beyond maybe the first few weeks or so). Does this view represent an overvalue of intelligence?

That sounds about right, though I would note that there's a huge amount of background knowledge that you need to absorb on LW. Not just raw facts, either, but ways of thinking. The lack of improvement might partially be because some people have absorbed that knowledge when they start posting and some haven't, and absorbing it takes such a long time that the improvement happens too slowly to notice.

Comment author: wedrifid 03 September 2010 09:25:10AM *  3 points [-]

I've noticed for example that people's abilities to make good comments on LW do not seem to improve much with practice and feedback from votes (beyond maybe the first few weeks or so). Does this view represent an overvalue of intelligence?

That's interesting. I hadn't got that impression but I haven't looked too closely at such trends either. There are a few people whose comments have improved dramatically but the difference seems to be social development and and not necessarily their rational thinking - so perhaps you have a specific kind of improvement in mind.

I'm interested in any further observations on the topic by yourself or others.