simplicio comments on Something's Wrong - Less Wrong

82 [deleted] 05 September 2010 06:08PM

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Comment author: Mass_Driver 05 September 2010 08:51:35PM 9 points [-]

Voted up for extremely clear writing on an important topic, but I vehemently disagree with part of your thesis.

Lack of success at fighting corruption does not imply anything about how harmful or harmless it is.

Agreed.

But it is the critic who counts. ... Just because nobody knows how to end poverty doesn’t mean poverty is okay.

I disagree on both points.

First, it is not the critic who counts. A critic with no solutions and no realistic hope of inspiring any counts for nothing; a volunteer who builds one house with Habitat for Humanity is better than a state legislator who delivers a thousand eloquent speeches in favor of increased housing funding but ultimately fails to secure passage for any of her bills.

One could point to a handful of reformers who have successfully focused attention on an issue with good results; e.g., Rachel Carson criticized America's environmental practices and asked people to pay more attention to the environment. For Carson, though, the criticism came with its own realistic solution--during the prosperous 1960s, at a time when rivers were literally aflame with floating toxic waste, it was plausible to think that people would spend more resources on environmental protection if only the topic were skillfully brought to their attention.

Today, there is little interest in poverty in the US, and not simply because of ignorance; many people are more or less aware of the conditions in which the other half lives, and yet they don't care. Claiming (correctly) that poverty is very, very bad, without some novel or concrete solution, is highly unlikely to rouse the rich and the middle classes from their apathy. Such a claim is merely pleasant speech; one who makes it has no claim on the kind of glory that Teddy Roosevelt was praising.

Second, if there really are no solutions to a problem, not even partial ones, then, in my opinion, it really is OK to take no action to solve the problem. I would, e.g., like to talk to my dead grandmother; I have a few questions to ask her. Unfortunately, her body has been in the dirt for 10 years, and her living relatives do not remember her clearly enough for me to construct some sort of holographic emulation. Therefore, this is an impossible problem, and I do not want to talk to her badly enough to tackle an impossible problem the way Eliezer describes in the sequences.

May I feel badly? May I feel outraged? Sure, if I like. Or, if I like, I can try to cultivate a sort of detachment from the problem; I can try to let go. In this sense, it is "OK" that my grandmother is dead beyond recall. I experience her deadness as harmful; I would not wish the death of a grandmother on others, and yet, I do not see the wisdom in stirring myself up and urging myself to be especially upset. Where would the energy I get from being upset go? There is nothing to be done. My time and energy are better spent on problems that can actually be solved.

I debate policy issues with friends a fair bit for fun, in part because it helps me think about where I might want to work, donate money, or volunteer. If the economy can be fixed but not the criminal justice system, I want to know that. I don't really care how 'wrong' each system is in the abstract, because most things are 'wrong' to one degree or another; our world is much less than perfect. What matters is whether a system is worse than a system that could actually be implemented, or, more precisely, worse than a system that people within my circle of influence could significantly help to implement.

Comment author: simplicio 06 September 2010 06:42:37AM 1 point [-]

...a volunteer who builds one house with Habitat for Humanity is better than a state legislator who delivers a thousand eloquent speeches in favor of increased housing funding but ultimately fails to secure passage for any of her bills.

I'm trying to figure out whether you're unimpressed with the legislator for (a) making useless speeches, or (b) making speeches that might have been useful but didn't succeed on this particular occasion.

Comment author: Mass_Driver 06 September 2010 07:44:59AM 0 points [-]

Hm, it seems I wasn't clear. The thousand speeches in my example would occur over a full career in politics, so that it should have become evident to the legislator that her speeches were not having much effect, and so that we can reasonably conclude that a rational person would not have expected a typical speech on her part to have the desired effect.

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 07 September 2010 10:11:33PM 2 points [-]

I give credit for a correct effort that happens to fail. With perfect foreknowledge, I guess you could only bother fighting where you will in fact prevail. Since it's your hypothetical, I'll give you a pass.

Comment author: JGWeissman 08 September 2010 07:28:24PM 2 points [-]

I give credit for a correct effort that happens to fail.

Reality doesn't.

Comment author: Mass_Driver 08 September 2010 07:11:51PM 1 point [-]

Well, sure; I would give credit for that too. However, if you routinely and repeatedly fail to achieve your stated goal over a long period of time, it constitutes very strong evidence that your customary activity does not achieve your goal. If you believe that you are simply the victim of bad luck or something like that, you should have equally strong evidence to support the belief. In the absence of such evidence, you should change your method or change your goal.

Obviously we will all fail sometimes; we don't have perfect foreknowledge and so the occasional or even frequent lost fight is totally acceptable. But when almost all you do is lose, it is irrational to believe that the effort you are putting in is "correct."

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 08 September 2010 09:44:57PM 0 points [-]

I agree. But on the other hand, you have people who change their investment strategy every time it "doesn't work" and on average do worse than e.g. anyone who holds fast in some non-ripoff index funds.

It would be nice to know which way I tend to err. I don't feel a need to deny my mistakes for psychological benefit, because I can just admit that I didn't try very hard to make the perfect decision at the time (bounded rationality). I'm always interested in improving my heuristics, but I don't want to spend too much time trying to optimize them, either.