jimrandomh comments on The conscious tape - Less Wrong

11 Post author: PhilGoetz 16 September 2010 07:55PM

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Comment author: jimrandomh 16 September 2010 08:32:35PM *  3 points [-]

In humans today, the output is not produced all at once -but from a computationalist perspective, that isn't important.

I don't think this is valid; the complexity you're discarding here may actually be essential. In particular, interacting with some sort of universe that provides inputs and responds to outputs may be a necessary condition for consciousness. Perhaps consciousness ought to be a two-place predicate. If you have a universe U1 containing a mind M, and you simulate the physics of U1 and save the final state on a tape that exists in universe U2, then conscious(M,U1) but ~conscious(M,U2). On the other hand, if U1 interacts with U2 while it's running, then conscious(M,U2).

Comment author: PhilGoetz 16 September 2010 09:24:37PM *  1 point [-]

Is the universe not something that can be represented as information? Do you mean U1 includes the specific materials used for its reality? That would be taking Searle's "conscious brains must be made of conscious-brain stuff" argument, and changing it to "conscious brains must be surrounded by consciousness-inducing universe stuff".

Comment author: jacob_cannell 16 September 2010 09:48:50PM 0 points [-]

The universe can be represented as computation, but it appears that requires a time element. You can not define a turing machine based on just a tape - it intrinsically requires a time dynamic in the form of the moving head.

So in digital physics and computationalism, time is fundemental - it really exists and can not be abstracted away. At the most core the universe is something that changes. Described as a turing machine it consists of information (the tape) and time - the mover.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 16 September 2010 11:07:28PM 1 point [-]

That sound right - but that leads to Option 2.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 17 September 2010 12:01:36AM 0 points [-]

Yes your option 2 sounds almost right, but see my amendments/disagreements.

Comment author: DanArmak 17 September 2010 07:18:36PM *  0 points [-]

You can not define a turing machine based on just a tape - it intrinsically requires a time dynamic in the form of the moving head.

A TM has an infinite working tape, but the problem of human-like consciousness has only finite input and output sizes. Therefore, you could define an (infinite) function by simply listing all possible pairs of (finite) inputs and outputs. This is a completely static, time-less representation that is still powerful enough to compute anything with bounded inputs and outputs.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 17 September 2010 08:32:43PM *  1 point [-]

Of course you can collapse any function into a static precomputation, but that is still itself a function, and it still requires at least one step, and it still requires the turing machine head, so you have not removed time.

I'm aware of no time-less representation of a turing machine, it seems impossible in principle.

Furthermore, for the system to exist in the real world, it will have to produce outputs for particular inputs at particular times - the time requirement is also imposed by the fact of time in our universe.

Comment author: DanArmak 17 September 2010 09:12:15PM 0 points [-]

What you say is true. I find myself unsure how it applies to the original subject. Possibly my comment wasn't on topic... So feel free to ignore it.