jacob_cannell comments on The conscious tape - Less Wrong

11 Post author: PhilGoetz 16 September 2010 07:55PM

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Comment author: jacob_cannell 16 September 2010 09:48:50PM 0 points [-]

The universe can be represented as computation, but it appears that requires a time element. You can not define a turing machine based on just a tape - it intrinsically requires a time dynamic in the form of the moving head.

So in digital physics and computationalism, time is fundemental - it really exists and can not be abstracted away. At the most core the universe is something that changes. Described as a turing machine it consists of information (the tape) and time - the mover.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 16 September 2010 11:07:28PM 1 point [-]

That sound right - but that leads to Option 2.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 17 September 2010 12:01:36AM 0 points [-]

Yes your option 2 sounds almost right, but see my amendments/disagreements.

Comment author: DanArmak 17 September 2010 07:18:36PM *  0 points [-]

You can not define a turing machine based on just a tape - it intrinsically requires a time dynamic in the form of the moving head.

A TM has an infinite working tape, but the problem of human-like consciousness has only finite input and output sizes. Therefore, you could define an (infinite) function by simply listing all possible pairs of (finite) inputs and outputs. This is a completely static, time-less representation that is still powerful enough to compute anything with bounded inputs and outputs.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 17 September 2010 08:32:43PM *  1 point [-]

Of course you can collapse any function into a static precomputation, but that is still itself a function, and it still requires at least one step, and it still requires the turing machine head, so you have not removed time.

I'm aware of no time-less representation of a turing machine, it seems impossible in principle.

Furthermore, for the system to exist in the real world, it will have to produce outputs for particular inputs at particular times - the time requirement is also imposed by the fact of time in our universe.

Comment author: DanArmak 17 September 2010 09:12:15PM 0 points [-]

What you say is true. I find myself unsure how it applies to the original subject. Possibly my comment wasn't on topic... So feel free to ignore it.