pozorvlak comments on Bayes' rule =/= Bayesian inference - Less Wrong

37 Post author: neq1 16 September 2010 06:34AM

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Comment author: TobyBartels 16 September 2010 06:04:33PM 2 points [-]

The frequency with which a coin comes up heads isn't a probability, no matter how much it looks like one.

Pedantry alert: This is not technically true, although it's still a very important point.

Every frequency is the probability of something; in this case, the frequency with which the coin comes up heads is the probability, given that you pick one of the times that the coin is flipped, that coin comes up heads that time.

But this is not the same thing as the probability that the coin comes up heads the next time that you flip it, which is what you are more likely to be interested in (and which people are liable to uselessly claim is "either 1 or 0, but I don't know which").

Comment author: wedrifid 16 September 2010 06:37:44PM *  2 points [-]

Even more pedantic: It still isn't a probability.

There is a probability p(heads | you picked one of those coins) and it can be found by simply taking the frequency. But the frequency still doesn't mean the probability. In much the same way 5 / 100 balls in the jar being red isn't a probability. It is a curious fact about the colors of balls in the jar. p(ball is red | I take a ball from that jar) is a probability.

Comment author: TobyBartels 16 September 2010 06:46:08PM 3 points [-]

Our think that our pedantries are clashing on the word "is".

I'm thinking of both frequencies and probabilities as numbers, and using "is" between them if they are equal numbers. You are (I guess) thinking of frequencies and probabilities are things of different types, which are not numbers even though they may be measured by numbers.

Come to think of it, your interpretation is more pedantic than mine, so I concede.

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 17 September 2010 04:53:42PM 0 points [-]

Thinking about it further, there is no probability which is even numerically equal to the frequency. Probabilities are subjective, you know them or can work them out in your head. But you don't know the frequency, so it can't be equal to any of the probabilities in your head (except by coincidence).

Comment author: TobyBartels 17 September 2010 11:55:43PM *  1 point [-]

I think that it's a mistake to reserve the term ‘probability’ for beliefs held by actual people (or other beings with beliefs). In fact, since actual people are subject to such pervasive epistemic biases (such as we try to overcome here), I doubt that anybody (even readers of Less Wrong) holds actual beliefs that obey the mathematical laws of probability.

I prefer to think of probabiliy as the belief of an ideal rational being with given information / evidence / observations. (This makes me what they call an ‘objective Bayesian’, although really it just pushes the subjectivity back to the level of information.) So even if nobody knows the frequency with which a given coin comes up heads (which is certainly true if the coin is still around and may be flipped in the future), I can imagine a rational being who knows that frequency.

But in a post that was supposed to be pedantic, I was remiss in not specifying exactly what information the probability depends on!

Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 17 September 2010 11:57:20AM 1 point [-]

Thanks, this clears some things up for me.

Comment author: TobyBartels 17 September 2010 11:41:55PM 0 points [-]

You're welcome!