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Luke_Grecki comments on Understanding vipassana meditation - Less Wrong
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Hm. I followed a link from what I'm told is your blog to a site for finding vipassana courses, and did a bunch of reading there. Some of the details made me quirk an eyebrow, but they could have just been poor presentation, so I went looking for more information elsewhere. I found, among other things, this thread talking about some very negative experiences with that particular organization (as well as some reminders that the organization does not represent the method).
The biggest red flags which went up while I was reading about that organization were the amount of sleep (posted schedule in the application I saw allows for a max of 6.5 hours/night), lack of real engagement with teachers, and pressure not to leave the course. Again, I realize the one organization doesn't represent the practice, although apparently they think they do:
(From the same link as above.)
Clearly some of the people didn't know what they were getting into, and yes, I realize it's not supposed to be easy, but that's still a whole pile of concerning things in one place. Have you attended a course run by the organization at dhamma.org? If so, where, and did you feel physically and mentally safe while there?
I didn't come away from that thread with only negative impressions, but the negative impressions are the ones I'm looking for responses to. The nearest courses to me are still far enough that I'd need to get a ride with someone else, meaning that while there I would be unable to leave on my own. This calls for a lot of caution about what I'd be getting myself into.
Yes. I've taken 5 (or 6?) courses, all at the Dhamma Dhara center in Massachusetts. I did feel physically and mentally safe there. I'll try to address the red flags you mentioned.
First it should be noted that the centers are somewhat independent, even though the course is quite standardized. They are run on volunteer donations and time, and as a result the set of people working there changes often. Most just come to volunteer for a single 10-day course. Therefore your experience will be partly dependent on the volunteer pool for that center. Some geographical locations will be probably better than others.
Now to your red flags:
The course schedule does indeed indicate that you should get 6.5 hours sleep, but you don't have to. I'm fairly sure a majority of students skip the first meditation session (from 4:30am to 6:30am) and simply get up for breakfast at 6:30am, allowing for 8.5 hours of sleep. Personally I didn't have much trouble getting up for the early session.
This could be a problem. The teachers seem to mostly parrot Goenka's instructions, even though they have extensive meditation experience. It's unfortunate. I didn't feel the need to ask many questions during my courses so it wasn't a major issue for me. More personalized instruction would be better and could allow for faster progress.
As I've never tried I can't speak to this personally. At the start of the course they do encourage you not to leave until the end. I've volunteered for some courses at the Massachusetts center and I've observed the procedure there. If you want to leave a volunteer will first ask you about the problem you're having. If they can address it they will, otherwise they'll ask you to talk to the teacher about it. I think the teacher usually encourages you to stay for one more session or something, since the desire to leave could be the result of a transient emotional storm. If they still want to leave, volunteers will help them get their stuff (and a taxi if need be). Again, your experience will be partly determined by the people who happen to be there.
In my experience the dhamma.org courses provided a positive and supportive environment. You will have to endure some (but not too much) dogma/garbage, which will probably also be the case in courses elsewhere.
Thank you, that's very helpful. Do you agree with eternaltourist saying that "everyone wants to leave the course," because it's so mentally difficult, but only a few give in to that urge?
Yes, I think the thought probably crosses most people's minds. I thought "Damn, this is HARD", but didn't ever seriously consider leaving. My guess is that the social support gives people strength they wouldn't have alone.
Some random data: during my experience volunteering I saw that 2-4 men left on average from an initial group of around 50.
I did leave one course years ago, after the third day. I spoke to the teacher and then I was allowed to leave. I met some resistance, a reasonable and understandable one in my opinion.
The memory the course has left is one of the fondest of my entire life. Since then I sworn to myself to attend again, this time successfully. In fact I have recently applied to a course for early 2011.
As for the critiques I have seen so far in this thread, I concur with many of them at an intellectual level, but the bottom line is that you have to try, on your own, on the field, with a critical mind of course, but also an open heart.
What I read (both site rules and participants' experiences) suggests that people are to behave as much as possible like they're alone--not only not speaking, but not really looking or interacting either. Did you not get that impression, or did the feeling of social support occur despite that?
Can you articulate what about it is difficult? The focus and mental effort in general, or the psychological experience? "No" is a valid answer to this, but I'm hoping not the only one. :)
That matches the estimates I found. Of course, mostly it's those two guys who go post on messages boards about it later.
It occurred despite that. You don't interact with other people, but you do meditate in the same large room, eat in the same room, and follow the same schedule. The videos at night discuss problems that most students have, which also helps build social support. Knowing that many people are going through similar difficulties is empowering.
Sustained mental effort, unpleasant emotional experiences, unsavory personal realizations, and physical pain. Straight head-butting your mental habits.
These occur in the vipassana stage, after the anapana? I think I have a good idea of where my various faults are and possible ways to fix them, having tried to work with them in the CBT framework. I tend to be rather harsh on myself, so I've had a quite a few unsavory personal realizations. Do you think there are likely to be more such realizations than I anticipate? Basically I figured I'd attacked myself from every which way already. :)
In my experience, anapana is more difficult and brings up more stuff because, unlike vipassana, simply focusing on the breath doesn't provide a way to deal with the stuff that comes up.
The thing to remember, though, is that you are trying to focus on breath (anapana) and body sensation (vipassana). Specific thoughts are more or less a distraction. Of course, your thoughts and mental state are tied to the sensations you experience, but because staying equanimous to the sensations is the tool your are using, the actual content of the thoughts are not something you are trying to focus on.
Hm, what does 'deal with' mean here? To me it brings to mind 'apply rapid fire cognitive behavioral therapy techniques', but that would require conscious deliberation on the thought. Perhaps the difference is that anapanasati is (or can be) just concentration where vipassana is concentration and mindfulness, and only the mindfulness part helps in dealing with stuff that comes up?
I see. Okay, that's all I've got for now; thanks for being patient with the third degree. ;)
Their pages mention that they are funded entirely by donations from past students.
After you've taken the course, how much do they contact you (to solicit donations or otherwise)?
Their attitude towards donations: if you feel that you've benefited from the course and would like others to be able to do so in the future then you can give a donation. The donation shouldn't be given for the purpose of paying for the benefits you've received.
IIRC they don't ever explicitly ask you if you want to give a donation. At the end of the course there is a visible table set up where you can give donations if you want to. They also have forms you can fill out if you'd like to get emails about volunteer opportunities.
Just to add to Luke_Grecki's comment (which is spot on), at some of the old student courses it's not even mentioned. The Goenka centers are remarkably passive about donations.
This may only be significant if you're considering taking courses in different countries. The only negative experience I've personally heard of occurred in a center in India.