soreff comments on The Irrationality Game - Less Wrong
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komponisto:
If I understand correctly, you're saying that talking about numbers rather than the usual verbal expressions of certainty prompts people to be more careful and re-examine their reasoning more strictly. This may be true sometimes, but on the other hand, numbers also tend to give a false feeling of accuracy and rigor where there is none. One of the usual symptoms (and, in turn, catalysts) of pseudoscience is the use of numbers with spurious precision and without rigorous justification.
In any case, you seem to concede that these numbers ultimately don't convey any more information than various vague verbal expressions of confidence. If you want to make the latter more systematic and clear, I have no problem with that, but I see no way to turn them into actual numbers without introducing spurious precision.
Trouble is, this is often not possible. Most of what happens in your brain is not amenable to introspection, and you cannot devise a probability calculation that will capture all the important things that happen there. Take your own example:
See, this is where, in my opinion, you're introducing spurious numerical claims that are at best unnecessary and at worst outright misleading.
First you note that murderers are extremely rare, and that AK is a sort of person especially unlikely to be one. OK, say you can justify these numbers by looking at crime statistics. Then you perform a complex common-sense evaluation of the evidence, and your brain tells you that on the whole it's weak, so it's highly unlikely that AK killed the victim. So far, so good. But then you insist on turning this feeling of near-certainty about AK's innocence into a number, and you end up making a quantitative claim that has no justification at all. You say:
I strongly disagree. Neither is this number you came up with any more meaningful than the simple plain statement "I think it's highly unlikely she did it," nor does it offer any additional practical benefit. On the contrary, it suggests that you can actually make a mathematically rigorous case that the number is within some well-defined limits. (Which you do disclaim, but which is easy to forget.)
Even worse, your claims suggest that while your numerical estimates may be off by an order of magnitude or so, the model you're applying to the problem captures reality well enough that it's only necessary to plug in accurate probability estimates. But how do you know that the model is correct in the first place? Your numbers are ultimately based on an entirely non-mathematical application of common sense in constructing this model -- and the uncertainty introduced there is altogether impossible for you to quantify meaningfully.
Let's see if we can try to hug the query here. What exactly is the mistake I'm making when I say that I believe such-and-such is true with probability 0.001?
Is it that I'm not likely to actually be right 999 times out of 1000 occasions when I say this? If so, then you're (merely) worried about my calibration, not about the fundamental correspondence between beliefs and probabilities.
Or is it, as you seem now to be suggesting, a question of attire: no one has any business speaking "numerically" unless they're (metaphorically speaking) "wearing a lab coat"? That is, using numbers is a privilege reserved for scientists who've done specific kinds of calculations?
It seems to me that the contrast you are positing between "numerical" statements and other indications of degree is illusory. The only difference is that numbers permit an arbitrarily high level of precision; their use doesn't automatically imply a particular level. Even in the context of scientific calculations, the numbers involved are subject to some particular level of uncertainty. When a scientist makes a calculation to 15 decimal places, they shouldn't be interpreted as distinguishing between different 20-decimal-digit numbers.
Likewise, when I make the claim that the probability of Amanda Knox's guilt is 10^(-3), that should not be interpreted as distinguishing (say) between 0.001 and 0.002. It's meant to be distinguished from 10^(-2) and (perhaps) 10^(-4). I was explicit about this when I said it was an order-of-magnitude estimate. You may worry that such disclaimers are easily forgotten -- but this is to disregard the fact that similar disclaimers always apply whenever numbers are used in any context!
Here's the way I do it: I think approximately in terms of the following "scale" of improbabilities:
(1) 10% to 50% (mundane surprise)
(2) 1% to 10% (rare)
(3) 0.1% (=10^(-3)) to 1% (once-in-a-lifetime level surprise on an important question)
(4) 10^(-6) to 10^(-3) (dying in a plane crash or similar)
(5) 10^(-10) to 10^(-6) (winning the lottery; having an experience unique among humankind)
(6) 10^(-100) to 10^(-10) (religions are true)
(7) below 10^(-100) (theoretical level of improbability reached in thought experiments).
10^-3 is roughly the probability that I try to start my car and it won't start because the battery has gone bad. Is the scale intended only for questions one asks once per lifetime? There are lots of questions that one asks once a day, hence my car example.
That is precisely why I added the phrase "on an important question". It was intended to rule out exactly those sorts of things.
The intended reference class (for me) consists of matters like the Amanda Knox case. But if I got into the habit of judging similar cases every day, that wouldn't work either.
Think "questions I might write a LW post about".