mwaser comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 4 - Less Wrong

3 Post author: gjm 07 October 2010 09:12PM

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Comment author: mwaser 02 November 2010 10:57:31AM 0 points [-]

I've never made the claim that the downvotes are "proof" of community irrationality. In fact, given what I believe to be the community's goals, I see them as entirely rational.

I have claimed that certain upvotes are irrational (i.e. those without any substance). The consensus reply seems to be that they still fulfill a purpose/goal for a large percentage of the regulars here. By definition, that makes those upvotes rational (yes, I AM reversing my stand on that issue because I have been "educated" on what the community's goals apparently are)..

I am very appreciative of the replies that have substance. I am currently of the opinion, however, that the karma system actually reduces the amount of replies since it allows someone to be easily and anonymously dismissed without good arguments/cause.

Comment author: Emile 02 November 2010 01:21:44PM 6 points [-]

By curiosity, what do you consider to be the community's goals?

I am currently of the opinion, however, that the karma system actually reduces the amount of replies since it allows someone to be easily and anonymously dismissed without good arguments/cause.

1) In itself, reducing the amount of replies is a feature, not a bug; I expect most readers would prefer few comments of high quality than many comments of varying quality.

2) the only instances of 'someone being dismissed without good arguments/cause" have been obvious spam and cranks. I don't think it's a fair description of the reaction to your comments, however; you've had plenty of detailed criticism.

Comment author: mwaser 02 November 2010 08:59:37PM -1 points [-]

The stated goal of the community is to refine the art of human rationality. Unfortunately, rationality is an instrumental goal dependent upon the next-level-up or terminal goal. Most people, including me (initially, at least), assume that the next goal up is logical argumentation or discovery of how to reason better.

Most of the practices here are rational in terms of a specific individual's goals (mostly in terms of maintaining beliefs) but are strictly contrary to good argumentation techniques. The number of ridiculous strawmen, arguments by authority, arguments by pointing to something long and rambling that has nothing to do with the initial argument, etc. is nothing short of overwhelming.

So the next goal up clearly isn't rational argumentation. Assuming that it was was the mistake that I made in the post Irrational Upvotes (and why I subsequently retracted my stand that they were irrational). They are rational in relation to another goal. My error was in my assumption of the goal.

One of Eliezer's main points is learning how to learn where you go wrong. This community is far worse at that than most I've seen. Y'all know how to argue/debate "logically" much better -- but it's normally to the purpose of retaining your views, not discovering where you might have gone wrong or where you might do better.

(I'll cover 1 and 2 in subsequent comments -- thanks for a high-quality response)

Comment author: shokwave 03 November 2010 07:33:54AM *  0 points [-]

the number of ridiculous strawmen, arguments by authority, arguments by pointing to something long and rambling that has nothing to do with the initial argument, etc. is nothing short of overwhelming.

Some things to consider on these points (mostly because I have not noticed a prevalence of these issues)

  • Strawmen. If, at point X, Y looks like a strawman of a position, then at point Y, X will look like a strawman. I think. If that's the case, it could be that many of us are at point X (LW rationality techniques, etc) and you are at point Y - making valid, credible arguments that we are countering with strawmen, as it were.
  • Arguments by authority. A hallmark of LessWrong is linking back to the sequences or to other posts; this could very easily look like we are saying "Eliezer said that's not the case". We aren't; he just produced a very good explanation of why it isn't the case, and it's easier to link to that explanation rather than fumble through our own duplication. Another point is that the average LWer is far more capable of deferring to people they know to be often correct - their judgement as a Bayesian reasoner is itself evidence. This looks even more like argument from authority, but there are subtle differences.
  • Links to long, rambling segues that aren't related. They are related, mostly. A combination of decompartmentalised thinking, skill with readily drawing analogies, and skill with (very) long inferential distances can produce relationships that seem bizarre or unlikely.

Lastly, this comment:

it's normally to the purpose of retaining your views, not discovering where you might have gone wrong or where you might do better.

is definitely a concern for ALL LWers. I suspect you have stumbled onto a case analogous to theism: it is not the case that we wish to retain our atheism and therefore we argue to keep that view - we really, truly, have considered all the evidence and all the arguments, and we reject it on those grounds.

Comment author: wedrifid 02 November 2010 09:25:49PM 0 points [-]

Has it got to the point where replying to this would be a violation of the 'Do not feed the trolls' convention? I had written a brief response but realize it may be better to ignore instead. But I will defer to the judgement of others here... if there are people who are still taking mwaser seriously then I will engage as appropriate.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 03 November 2010 04:21:07AM *  1 point [-]

Has it got to the point where replying to this would be a violation of the 'Do not feed the trolls' convention?

mwaser does not sound trollish here to me:

This community is far worse at that than most I've seen. Y'all know how to argue/debate "logically" much better -- but it's normally to the purpose of retaining your views, not discovering where you might have gone wrong or where you might do better.

There are users whom I think this describes well, including a few very active and usually-correct ones.

Comment author: JGWeissman 02 November 2010 09:31:06PM 1 point [-]

Has it got to the point where replying to this would be a violation of the 'Do not feed the trolls' convention?

Not exactly, but I would support a "Do not feed the crackpots" convention.

Comment author: wedrifid 02 November 2010 09:39:04PM *  2 points [-]

Good point. An important distinction. Trolling is entirely different in nature (and much more normatively objectionable). Although one way to create trolls is to feed the crackpots after midnight.