HughRistik comments on Morality and relativistic vertigo - Less Wrong

40 Post author: Academian 12 October 2010 02:00AM

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Comment author: Vladimir_M 13 October 2010 01:29:32AM *  2 points [-]

SarahC:

A few questions: One, are you saying that scientists should strive to be ignorant of the existence of widely discussed ideological and moral issues? Is this one of the cases where less knowledge is better than more knowledge?

Well, first, it depends on what they're working on. Many things are remote enough from any conceivable issues of ideology and power politics that this is not a problem; for example, Albert Einsten’s very silly ideology didn't seem to interfere with his physics. However, topics that have bearing on such issues would indeed be best done by space aliens who'd feel complete disconnect from all human concerns. This seems to me like an entirely obvious corollary of the general principle that in the interest of objectivity, a judge should have no personal stakes in the case he presides over.

If scientists could somehow remain ignorant of the ideological implications of their work, this would indeed have a positive effect on their objectivity. But of course that this is impossible in practice, so it would make no sense to strive for it. This is a deep problem without a solution in sight. (Except for palliative measures like increasing public awareness that in ideologically sensitive areas, one should be skeptical even towards work with highly prestigious affiliations.)

Two, what is an ideology? (Of course, I know how to use the word in a sentence, but you use it so often on LW that I wonder if you have a precise definition.) For example, would you describe yourself as having any ideology?

My favorite characterization was given by James Burnham: “An ‘ideology’ is similar in the social sphere to what is sometimes called ‘rationalization’ in the sphere of individual psychology. [...] It is the expression of hopes, wishes, fears, ideals, not a hypothesis about events -- though ideologies are often thought by those who hold them to be scientific theories.” (From The Managerial Revolution.)

Taken in the broadest possible sense, therefore, every person has an ideology, which encompasses all their beliefs, ideas, and attitudes that are not a matter of exact scientific or practical knowledge, and which are at least partly concerned with the public matters of social order (with the implications this has on the practical relations of power and status, although these are rarely stated and discussed openly and explicitly).

In a more narrow sense, however, ideology refers to such beliefs, ideas, and attitudes that are held with an extraordinary level of commitment and passion, which pushes one towards constant conflict -- verbal, propagandistic, political, perhaps even physical -- with those who don't share the same ideological affiliation, and which renders one fatally biased and incapable of rational argument in ideologically charged matters. (In particular, when I call someone an “ideologue,” I refer to such people, especially those who are at the forefront of developing and propagandizing their favored ideological systems.)

Whether I belong to this latter category, well, you be the judge.

Three, of the possible means one could use to achieve one's desires, would you say that writing biased scientific papers is an immoral means? What about persuasive essays?

That depends on your value judgment: how bad is it when someone contributes to the corruption of science? Science is not a natural and resilient mode of human intellectual work. It is something that critically depends on the quality of the institutions pursuing it, and these institutions are easy to corrupt, but almost impossible to fix. That our culture has them at all is, by all historical standards, a lucky accident.

Of course, one biased paper won’t cause much harm by itself, but only in the same sense that perfect forgery of a moderate amount of money harms nobody in particular very much. (On the other hand, I would say that even a single prominent biased career can cause a great deal of damage.) In both cases, if this activity is permitted and becomes widespread, the consequences will be disastrous.

Comment author: HughRistik 13 October 2010 04:38:19AM *  1 point [-]

Vladimir, have you read Spreading Misandry and Legalizing Misandry by Nathanson & Young? They've done some of the best work I've read on the subject of ideology. Here is their description of ideological feminism:

Ideological feminism is the direct heir of both the Enlightenment and Romanticism. From the former it takes the theory of class conflict, merely substituting "gender" for "class" and "patriarchy" for "bourgeoisie." From the latter it takes the notion of nation or even race, focusing ultimately on the innate biological differences between women and men. The worldview of ideological feminism, like that of both Marxism and National Socialism—our analogies are between ways of thinking, not between specific ideas—is profoundly dualistic. In effect, "we" (women) are good, "they" (men) are evil. Or, to use the prevalent lingo, "we" are victims, "they" are oppressors.

Most of their criticism is aimed at feminism, but if you think about their description of ideology, it's not difficult to see the same problems in any political movement. Here are the features they relate to ideologies:

  • Dualism (see above)
  • Essentialism ("calling attention to the unique qualities of women")
  • Hierarchy ("alleging directly or indirectly that women are superior to men")
  • Collectivism ("asserting that the rights of individual men are less important than the communal goals of women")
  • Utopianism ("establishing an ideal social order within history")
  • Selective cynicism ("directing systematic suspicion only toward men")
  • Revolutionism ("adopting a political program that goes beyond reform")
  • Consequentialism ("asserting the beliefs that ends can justify means")
  • Quasi-religiousity ("creating what amounts to a secular religion")

I would be interested to know how these features relate to your experiences with ideologies.

Other notable sections in Spreading Misandry:

Making the World Safe for Ideology

The use of deconstructionism by ideologies

Film Theory and Ideological Feminism

I recommend these books to anyone who is interested in biases, group psychology, and ideologies; their books give excellent philosophical discussions of these subjects that go beyond the particular examples of feminism and misandry. They also attempt a philosophical exploration of what "political correctness" is, and what's wrong with it, and they examine deconstructionism.

Comment author: Vladimir_M 13 October 2010 06:30:50AM *  0 points [-]

I haven't read the books by Nathanson & Young, but looking at their tables of contents, I can say that I am well familiar with these topics. However, it's important to immediately note that the notion of ideology that you (and presumably N&Y) have in mind is narrower than what I was writing about. This might sound like nitpicking about meanings of words, and clearly neither usage can claim to be exclusively correct, but it is important to be clear about this to avoid confusion.

Ideology in the broader sense also includes the well-established and uncontroversial views and attitudes that enable social cohesion in any human society. (This follows the usage in Burnham's text I cited; for example, in that same text, shortly after the cited passage, Burnham goes on to discuss individualism and belief in property rights as key elements of the established ideologies of capitalist societies.) In contrast, your meaning is narrower, covering a specific sort of more or less radical ideologies that have played a prominent role in modern history, which all display the traits you listed to at least some extent.

One book you might find interesting, which discusses ideology in this latter sense, is Alien Powers: The Pure Theory of Ideology by the LSE political theorist Kenneth Minogue. I only skimmed through a few parts of the book, but I would recommend it based on what I've seen. Minogue is upfront about his own position (i.e. ideology, in Burnham's sense, but not his), which might be described as intellectual and moderate libertarianism; in my opinion, this is the kind of topic where authors of this sort usually shine at their brightest. You can find an excerpt presenting the basic ideas from the book here.

I'll check out these books by Nathanson & Young in more detail, and perhaps post some more comments later.