...science bears upon instrumental issues but not terminal ones.
For what I consider non-obvious reasons, I disagree. As you say (and thanks for pointing this out explicitly),
What would falsify this idea would be an example of new factual knowledge changing someone's perception of the moral value of some action, with this change persisting even after adjusting for the effect the knowledge has on the instrumental value of the action.
I have undergone changes in values that I would describe in this way. Namely, I had something I considered a terminal value that I stopped considering terminal upon realizing something factual about it. I'm guessing LucasSloan and Jayson_Virissimo are referring to similar experiences in these comments.
You could argue that it changing means "It wasn't really terminal to begin with". However, the separation of a given utility function into values and balancing operations is non-unique, so my current opinion is that the terminal/instrumental distinction is at best somewhat nominal. In other words, the change that it stopped feeling terminal may be the only sort of change worth calling "not being terminal anymore".
So I think you should more precisely demand an example of a person's utility function changing in response to knowledge. On the day of the factual realization I mentioned above, while it's clear that my description of my utility function to myself and others changed, it's not clear to me that the function itself changed much right away. But it does seem to me that over time, expressing it differently has gradually changed the function, though I can't be sure.
I only hinted at all this when I added
First of all, you might change your morals in response to them not relating to each other in the way you expected. Ideas parse differently when they relate differently. "Teachers should be allowed to physically punish their students" might never feel the same to you after you find out it causes adult violence.
When I first made the utility function/description distinction, it was for abstract reasons (I was making a toy model of human morality for another purpose), and I didn't quite notice the implications it would have for how people think of moral progress. Now in response to your demand for explicit examples, I'm a lot more motivated to sort this out. Thanks!
I have undergone changes in values that I would describe in this way. Namely, I had something I considered a terminal value that I stopped considering terminal upon realizing something factual about it.
Changing terminal values in response to learning is not only possible, but downright normal. We pursue one goal or another and find the life thus lived to be good or bad in our experience. We learn more about the goal-state or goal object, and it deepens or loses its attraction.
This needn't mean that "the true terminal value" is pleasure or ot...
tl;dr: Relativism bottoms-out in realism by objectifying relations between subjective notions. This should be communicated using concrete examples that show its practical importance. It implies in particular that morality should think about science, and science should think about morality.
Sam Harris attacks moral uber-relativism when he asserts that "Science can answer moral questions". Countering the counterargument that morality is too imprecise to be treated by science, he makes an excellent comparison: "healthy" is not a precisely defined concept, but no one is crazy enough to utter that medicine cannot answer questions of health.
What needs adding to his presentation (which is worth seeing, though I don't entirely agree with it) is what I consider the strongest concise argument in favor of science's moral relevance: that morality is relative simply means that the task of science is to examine absolute relations between morals. For example, suppose you uphold the following two moral claims:
First of all, note that questions of causality are significantly more accessible to science than people before 2000 thought was possible. Now suppose a cleverly designed, non-invasive causal analysis found that physically punishing children, frequently or infrequently, causes them to be more likely to commit criminal violence as adults. Would you find this discovery irrelevant to your adherence to these morals? Absolutely not. You would reflect and realize that you needed to prioritize them in some way. Most would prioritize the second one, but in any case, science will have made a valid impact.
So although either of the two morals is purely subjective on its own, how these morals interrelate is a question of objective fact. Though perhaps obvious, this idea has some seriously persuasive consequences and is not be taken lightly. Why?
First of all, you might change your morals in response to them not relating to each other in the way you expected. Ideas parse differently when they relate differently. "Teachers should be allowed to physically punish their students" might never feel the same to you after you find out it causes adult violence. Even if it originally felt like a terminal (fundamental) value, your prioritization of (2) might make (1) slowly fade out of your mind over time. In hindsight, you might just see it as an old, misinformed instrumental value that was never in fact terminal.
Second, as we increase the number of morals under consideration, the number of relations for science to consider grows rapidly, as (n2-n)/2: we have many more moral relations than morals themselves. Suddenly the old disjointed list of untouchable maxims called "morals" fades into the background, and we see a throbbing circulatory system of moral relations, objective questions and answers without which no person can competently reflect on her own morality. A highly prevalent moral like "human suffering is undesirable" looks like a major organ: important on its own to a lot of people, and lots of connections in and out for science to examine.
Treating relativistic vertigo
To my best recollection, I have never heard the phrase "it's all relative" used to an effect that didn't involve stopping people from thinking. When the topic of conversation — morality, belief, success, rationality, or what have you — is suddenly revealed or claimed to depend on a context, people find it disorienting, often to the point of feeling the entire discourse has been and will continue to be "meaningless" or "arbitrary". Once this happens, it can be very difficult to persuade them to keep thinking, let alone thinking productively…
To rebuke this sort of conceptual nihilism, it's natural to respond with analogies to other relative concepts that are clearly useful to think about:
"Position, momentum, and energy are only relatively defined as numbers, but we don't abandon scientific study of those, do we?"
While an important observation, this inevitably evokes the "But that's different" analogy-immune response. The real cure is in understanding explicitly what to do with relative notions:
To use one of these lines of argument effectively — and it can be very effective — one should follow up immediately with a specific example in the case you're talking about. Don't let the conversation drift in abstraction. If you're talking about morality, there is no shortage of objective moral relations that science can handle, so you can pick one at random to show how easy and common it is:
"Teen pregnancy / the spread of STDs is undesirable."
Question: Does promoting the use of condoms increase or decrease teen pregnancy rates / the spread of STDs?
"Married couples should do their best not to cheat on each other."
Question: Does masturbation increase or decrease adulterous impulses over time?
"Children should not be raised in psychologically damaging environments."
Question: What are the psychological effects of being raised by gay parents?
I'm not advocating here any of these particular moral claims, nor any particular resolution between them, but simply that the answer to the given question — and many other relevant ones — puts you in a much better position to reflect on these issues. Your opinion after you know the answer is more valuable than before.
"But of course science can answer some moral questions... the point is that it can't answer all of them. It can't tell us ultimately what is good or evil."
No. That is not the point. The point is whether you want teachers to beat their students. Do you? Well, science can help you decide. And more importantly, once you do, it should help you in leading others to the same conclusion.
A lesson from history: What happens when you examine objective relations between subjective beliefs? You get probability theory… Bayesian updating… we know this story; it started around 200 years ago, and it ends well.
Now it's morality's turn.