araneae comments on What is the group selection debate? - Less Wrong

28 Post author: Academian 02 November 2010 02:02AM

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Comment author: araneae 02 November 2010 07:12:20PM *  3 points [-]

The case you described, where the cancer cell resulted in the death of the individual human, could equally well be described as kin selection. An individual that hurt its close genetic relatives- and actually actively kills them- also hurts its individual reproductive success.

The argument against group selection is an argument against its usefulness as a concept. Where group selection works, it is mathematically indistinguishable from kin selection, so you might as well use kin selection as your conceptual model. Additionally, it can be confusing for people who don't understand the circumstances where it definitely cannot work, which is any case where the individuals are not closely related.

Comment author: timtyler 02 November 2010 09:52:11PM 0 points [-]

Where group selection works, it is mathematically indistinguishable from kin selection, so you might as well use kin selection as your conceptual model.

Er, that isn't right. See Wade's flower beetles.

Comment author: araneae 02 November 2010 11:01:50PM 1 point [-]

I suppose I should have said, "where group selection works in nature."

From the paper you cited: "Unlike these closed laboratory populations, populations in nature would often be open to emigration." Evidence of group selection occurring or having occurred in real populations has never been observed.