icarusfall comments on Have no heroes, and no villains - Less Wrong

88 Post author: PhilGoetz 07 November 2010 09:15PM

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Comment author: David_Gerard 09 November 2010 06:39:38PM *  5 points [-]

I would need actual examples of people who thought of themselves as villains here. (I realise this request may involve mindreading.)

Some do appear to be running through the Cool Villain pages on TVTropes, but would think of themselves as doing so to achieve an end. Some seem to have talked themselves into a position of moral ambiguity, where you can't do just one thing and someone will always get hurt and they might as well be the ones trying to make the least hash of it and achieve something better than bad. And the Xanatos gambits! It's quite dazzling having a party apparatchik describe to you their ridiculous gambit that they then seem to pull off. And wonder if the bit where they tell you about it was part of the gambit. Anything involving politics is a thirty Xanatos pileup every day anyway.

(It's not a counterexample to what you've said, but I think of Pol Pot's last recorded words, "Everything I did, I did for my country" and marvel at humans' power not to paint themselves as villains. Though that quote could arguably show slight awareness sneaking in.)

Comment author: icarusfall 10 November 2010 10:03:51AM *  0 points [-]

A fictional example of someone wanting to be a villain might be Shakespeare's Richard III. In the opening soliloquy in the play:

I, that am curtail'd of this fair proportion,

Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,

Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time

Into this breathing world, scarce half made up,

And that so lamely and unfashionable

That dogs bark at me as I halt by them;

Why, I, in this weak piping time of peace,

Have no delight to pass away the time,

Unless to spy my shadow in the sun

And descant on mine own deformity:

And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,

To entertain these fair well-spoken days,

I am determined to prove a villain

And hate the idle pleasures of these days.

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/richardiii/full.html

Of course, the real Richard III probably wasn't that bad a chap, just poorly treated by Tudor propaganda (arguably)...

Comment author: TobyBartels 11 November 2010 06:46:17AM *  1 point [-]

Of course, the real Richard III probably wasn't that bad a chap, just poorly treated by Tudor propaganda (arguably)...

And it is so argued.