Perplexed comments on Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People - Less Wrong

86 Post author: lionhearted 01 December 2010 08:25AM

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Comment author: David_Gerard 01 December 2010 09:19:16PM *  5 points [-]

The nerd social rules as I know them include things like getting to the point faster and welcoming minor corrections mid-sentence, but don't include hostile language.

Unfortunately, practical experience of what people mean when they advocate less politeness in the cause of more communication says otherwise. Follow that link and you'll see people over and over defending not just being inconsiderate but actual hostility - blatant rudeness and direct intentional offensiveness - as "honest communication" and treating people wanting them to stop as "suppressing communication" or "being politically correct". And this is just one set of examples.

As such, the argument in practice appears to be that people don't like being asked to consider others when transmitting, and - and this is a key part - aren't especially keen on listening unless it's in the precise terms they want. That is, they are observably not filtering on output and are observably very fussy indeed on input.

Of course, you could argue that that's not real nerd communication, but using a claim of "politeness hampers honest communication" seems to happen when people say "hey, could you, y'know, stop blatantly being a dick?"

So such an argument is slightly tainted in practice by the uses it's been put to before. And perhaps that's not how an ideal world works, but it does appear to be how this one with people in it works. It's possible to make the argument honestly, and I'm not saying you're not; I am saying that by using that argument, you're welcoming others using the argument as an excuse for making the communication space much more hostile than it needs to be.

And it remains unclear to me how the repeated special pleading for bad communication skills in this thread constitutes a refinement in the art of human rationality.

Comment author: Perplexed 01 December 2010 11:35:11PM 1 point [-]

Unfortunately, practical experience of what people mean when they advocate less politeness in the cause of more communication says otherwise.

That is a rather offensive piece of pattern completion you just did there. If you want to characterize what you have seen on this thread as "repeated special pleading for bad communication skills" then you may be putting your finger on something important. But when you try to conflate that with the incidents reported in your link, then you are engaging in a particularly inappropriate form of stereotyping. Where, on this thread, have you seen overt hostility to women? Or any other form of nastiness?

As with any other male-dominated community, we exhibit traces of sexism. But I see no evidence that rationalizations against politeness here are some kind of cryptic anti-woman signaling. Some of us, of both sexes, really do prefer to receive our negative feedback undiluted.

Comment author: wedrifid 01 December 2010 11:40:18PM 4 points [-]

I upvoted for the the rest of the comment but object to this:

As with any other male-dominated community, we exhibit traces of sexism.

Lesswrong exhibits traces of sexism (of more than one kind) and this is an example of it.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 23 October 2011 11:29:12AM 1 point [-]

It's not the incidents themselves - its the arguments about the incidents. That there are arguments, and the style of those arguments, shows the hypocrisy.

Comment author: AstroCJ 02 December 2010 12:57:00AM -2 points [-]

"Or any other form of nastiness?"

I've noticed over the past week just how often LW posters talk about (to create a typical example) a "generic rational agent, who does something, then he...", attributing all generic rational agents the male gender. It's extremely irritating to read that being rational means one is ¬¬male! (modus tollens).

(But David_Gerard wasn't making a point about sexism; rather, a point about defending for too long signalling that other people find impolite.)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 03 July 2011 02:00:23PM 2 points [-]

At this point, anything one can do with third person pronouns has the potential of being seen as impolite by a fair number of people.

I look at that sentence, and it's true, and I know how the situation happened, and there's a virtue in not being shocked at the real world..... but this is a very weird situation.

In other news, I considered making a button that said "red is the new blue" with the words printed in reverse colors, but too many people thought it was intended as a political reference.

Comment author: David_Gerard 01 December 2010 11:39:44PM *  -1 points [-]

It was, of course, posted as a real-world example of how the "let's be unvarnished" meme tends to work out in practice: people who claim they want unvarnished communication tend to lash out when they actually get some back.

I see no evidence that rationalizations against politeness here are some kind of cryptic anti-woman signaling.

And, of course, I didn't say that, or anything like it. I said that people who demand unvarnished speech tend to mean they want to transmit it, and tend to show little sign of being able to receive it and decode it sensibly.

Put it this way: if erratio got it and you didn't, your inward filtering may need adjustment.