Eliezer_Yudkowsky comments on Exponentiation goes wrong first - Less Wrong

10 [deleted] 14 December 2010 04:13AM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 14 December 2010 10:04:12AM *  2 points [-]

Trying to download this paper, the connection timed out.

I just found that amusing, given the subject matter.

Anyway. I don't see how you could possibly believe that axioms 1 through 4 are meaningful and axiom 5 is too infinite to be meaningful. If you deny infinity then you should deny that axioms 1 through 4 are together meaningful, because they only have infinite models. 5 just restricts that infinity to the smallest one, the intersection of all the models that match 1 through 4.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 15 December 2010 06:07:12AM 9 points [-]

You are using strong theories to reason about Peano arithmetic. If Nelson doubts the consistency of PA, he's not going to buy your argument.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 December 2010 01:29:00PM *  7 points [-]

Try the new link.

I don't see how you could possibly believe that axioms 1 through 4 are meaningful and axiom 5 is too infinite to be meaningful.

Nelson does not believe that axiom 5 is any less meaningful than axioms 1-4. He believes that, granting axioms 1-4, axiom 5 is false.

If you deny infinity then you should deny that axioms 1 through 4 are together meaningful, because they only have infinite models.

Yes all models, in the sense of model theory, of axioms 1-4 are infinite. But why would you require a model of PA before regarding PA as meaningful? After all no one actually possesses such an infinite model, or any other infinite set.

Model theory is based on set theory. With a powerful enough set theory (including ZF) one can actually prove that arithmetic is consistent. Nelson believes that such strong forms of set theory are inconsistent.

5 just restricts that infinity to the smallest one, the intersection of all the models that match 1 through 4.

You're mistaken. There exist nonstandard models of Peano arithmetic.