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shokwave comments on The Santa deception: how did it affect you? - Less Wrong
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I'm shameless when it comes to securing a good education for my kid. When looking for day cares, I was on several waiting lists at the same time and on my way to work I would alternate stopping at the different places to tell them I couldn't wait to bring my kid there while I surreptitiously spied on them. So it didn't seem like that big a deal to join the parish of the Catholic school I want my daughter to go to. According to the admissions lady (who also seemed rather shameless in her matter-of-factness about the facts of admission), I should start actually attending the church (how did she know I didn't?) and tithing some small amount, to be increased substantially once admission occurs. (But the total tuition decreases, so.)
So last Sunday I went to church and brought the family, sans husband (who would not deign, even though he certainly won't want the job of carpooling across town to the next best school).
I learned an amazing thing. All of my daughter's friends were there and it was a HUGE social event for her. Really? Church? Important background information is that we had a birthday party a month ago and other than family, only one friend from school came. During the doughnuts and coffee hug-all-your-theist-friends-time, we secured a cookie decorating play date invitation at someone's house for the first time.
So this is what I've been depriving my daughter of? And I was going to send her to this school, clueless, friendless? I'm afraid -- I fear --that her religious education is about to begin in earnest. I want her to fit in. I think it would be unfair to send her to a school where she's going to be weird.
I'll just hide my cards, that as soon as she's ready I'll let her know she doesn't have to believe any of it if she doesn't want to. With me, she can absorb and reflect as much detached irony as she wants to, or be completely sincere about her religious beliefs if that's what feels right with her friends.
Wow, what a turn-coat I've turned out to be. Hopefully this is just a momentary lapse, a brief flirtation with the could-that-I-didn't. Because it is safely Tuesday and God needn't come up again until Sunday. Wait -- Christmas is on Saturday this year.
I think I'm joking. I think I just don't have a pat solution yet about what I'm going to do about this social-school-religion thingy. I just hadn't thought through what a religious school means.(Really? They go to mass on Fridays?) I thought French kids go to Catholic school, so it should be normal and ignorable. Or perhaps I should just pay the higher tuition. (How expensive are my principles, per month?) And then there is that sneaking worry there, if she'll be treated the same, and not supported as well in her education.
I feel guilty, knowing this is a small problem compared to actually being committted to a different belief system. In the sense that I have the luxury of pretending to be Catholic, if I want to.
An atheist friend's younger sister is being drawn into a Christian youth-group for this exact reason. I felt conflicted because on epistemic grounds, believing whatever makes you friends isn't a procedure for making truthful beliefs, but on consequentialist grounds I advised him not to talk her out of it, because her expected loss from believing in God did not outweigh the expected gain of a greatly increased social life. This sounded to him like "believing in God is good because you get friends", which I agreed earlier was not a good reason to believe in God. I retracted my advice in confusion.
It really is a tough question. Which bastard attached social consequences to epistemic concerns?
Why is "believing in God" a component of "going to youth group"? It's a social outing. You're right that it's worth running the risk of conversion to Christianity in order to get friends; he's wrong in declaring that hanging out with Christians is dangerous.
It is not always the case, but it most definitely is the case in this specific situation. She is noticeably converting to belief in Christianity (and not belief in belief or belief in sports teams, as far as I can test).
Then, I was arguing it's worth converting to Christianity in order to get friends. Which I do believe is the case for this particular young girl; I just ran into my deontological rule "don't convert to Christianity" while discussing it.
It helped put my sister into a really terrible Born-Again phase. She was even telling me about Satanic messages backward-masked in records. She got over it, but her husband's mother is an evangelical preacher (to a degree that disconcerts even other Born-Agains) and has inflicted Christian rock on their daughter. (That said, the husband is remarkably stoic and his mother has turned him into a passive-resistance agnostic.)
So, er, yeah: if you drop someone into an environment calculated to inculcate them with toxic memes, it might turn out to be as influential upon their thinking as it explicitly intends to be.
I am the son of a pastor, by the way. The issue may be what youth groups one goes to; not all of them are that virulently designed.
The best argument for Christianity is happy Christians and unhappy atheists; the best counterargument to that is not unhappier Christians but happier atheists. If you (and your children) already have what the youth group is selling, the danger should be seriously reduced.
I really don't consider "only contains a small amount of virulent disease, you'll hardly notice!" enough to make it seem in almost any way a good idea.
I'm not entirely pleased my daughter's likely to go to the local C of E primary, but the alternatives were completely woeful state sink schools or a Catholic school. I believe I declared "There is NO FUCKING WAY I am throwing her to the Catholics." She'd get an education, but I consider it appalling abuse to subject a small child to that emotional environment. I would home-school her first, and I have some idea how much work that would be.
Don't miss out on youth-group just because they might teach you about God. At least, don't if they are anything like the youth groups I used to engage in. It is amazing how much fun you can have once you eliminate consuming alcohol as a source of entertainment. For example, you can take the alcohol, pour it on a rag covered ball, ignite it and play some soccer in the paddock. Just go easy on the headbutting.
Consuming alcohol isn't the source of entertainment per se; consuming alcohol near members of the desirable sex who are also consuming alcohol is lead-up to the source of enjoyment. I am given to understand that this is not an option within the rules she has picked up from youth group; she has a boyfriend from said group, and they have publicly agreed to stay off third base until they are married.
Ewww. Now that is something you definitely don't want to catch.