Annoyance comments on How to Not Lose an Argument - Less Wrong

109 Post author: Yvain 19 March 2009 01:07AM

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Comment author: thomblake 19 March 2009 07:59:13PM 1 point [-]

No person who chooses his friends over speaking the truth is a rationalist.

Then rationalists are terribly vicious people.

Honesty is a virtue. Too much concern for truth-telling is a vice (one might call such person a 'stickler').

This post does not ask you to pursue friendship at the expense of learning the truth. It instead suggests a way of helping other people come to the truth, in a way that can advance friendship.

Comment author: Nebu 19 March 2009 09:40:02PM 3 points [-]

No person who chooses his friends over speaking the truth is a rationalist.

Then rationalists are terribly vicious people.

Once again, we are running into the problem of the term "rational" referring to at least two different concepts.

  1. Epistemic rationality: The map should reflect the terroritory. Truth above all else.
  2. Instrumental rationality: You should win. My values are such that making my friends happy is a form of winning.
Comment author: Annoyance 21 March 2009 03:12:17PM *  2 points [-]

Once again, we are running into the problem of the term "rational" referring to at least two different concepts.

1. Epistemic rationality: The map should reflect the terroritory. Truth above all else. 2. Instrumental rationality: You should win. My values are such that making my friends happy is a form of winning.

You can't expect to achieve your goals unless you can match options with outcomes. How we define 'winning' is itself something that's determined by our goals, and reality determines which goals are self-compatible.