Boyi comments on How to Not Lose an Argument - Less Wrong

109 Post author: Yvain 19 March 2009 01:07AM

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Comment author: Boyi 13 December 2011 11:57:31PM 0 points [-]

Look I am not trying to disagree with the scientific method. It is incredibly powerful and beneficial methodology for producing knowledge. What I am saying is

1-that as an institution and a belief-sysetm "science" does not live up to the scientific method. 2- That it is impossible to do so given what we have learned about the human condition.

Comment author: Bugmaster 14 December 2011 01:13:04AM 1 point [-]

1-that as an institution and a belief-sysetm "science" does not live up to the scientific method.

I'm not sure what it would mean for science to "live up" to the scientific method. The scientific method is, well, a method; it's not an ideology.

Sure, scientists are humans with power and discourse and all kinds of cognitive biases, and thus they don't practice the scientific method with absolute perfection. And yes, I bet that there are quite a few traditions and institutions within the scientific community that could be improved. But, even with all its imperfections, science has been devastatingly effective as far as "belief systems" are concerned. As it was said upthread, science actually predict which planes will fly and which will fall; so far, no other methodology has been able to even come close.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 December 2011 12:30:00AM *  1 point [-]
  1. Somewhat agree. Science is broken in systematic ways. See the quantum physics sequence.

  2. That statement is a rather bold one to post on a site dedicated to improving human epistemological methods. It doesn't seem to me that a bit of irrationality should prevent us from doing better; we didn't even know what we were doing up until now.

EDIT: On 1 did you mean that science as we do it does not match the ideal, or the ideal does not work as well as is possible? Both are true.

Comment author: dlthomas 14 December 2011 12:40:11AM *  1 point [-]

I wouldn't say 2 is bold at all, really, provided it is taken in a weak form - particularly if we factor out the transhumanist element. Yes, we will never be perfect Bayesian reasoning machines. This doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't do better ever better. I'm not sure what reasonably charitable interpretation would be a really bold claim, here... "We're so far gone we shouldn't bother trying," perhaps, but that doesn't seem to square with this poster's other posts.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 December 2011 12:54:06AM 1 point [-]

I don't really have a clear idea of what boyi is even trying to say, so I'm not trying to square it with other posts.

The way I see it, "it's impossible to make science live up to the ideals" is pretty bold. I'll try to see a charitable interpretation.

Comment author: dlthomas 14 December 2011 12:56:37AM 0 points [-]

The way I see it, "it's impossible to make science live up to the ideals" is pretty bold.

I don't know, there's a general sense in which ideals are almost never reached.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 December 2011 01:04:31AM 1 point [-]

yeah. I interpreted it closer to "impossible to do better" than "impossible to be perfect". Looking back, the former is the more charitable interpretation.

I get this distinct feeling of having fallen for the fallacy of gray (cant be perfect == can't do better).

Comment author: Nornagest 14 December 2011 01:11:15AM 1 point [-]

Idiomatically speaking, I think you can usually parse "can't be perfect" as a proxy for "should not aspire to the ideal, even if you accept that it can only be approached asymptotically".

Comment author: Boyi 14 December 2011 12:34:49AM 0 points [-]

On 1. I meant both.

On 2. I realize that it is a bold statement given the context of this blog. My reason for making it is that I believe taking the paradox of rationality into account would better serve your purposes.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 December 2011 01:00:44AM 2 points [-]

If what you mean by 2 is that we can never be perfect, then yeah, that is a legitimate concern, and one that has been discussed.

I think the big distinction to make is that just because we aren't and can't be perfect, doesn't mean we should not try to do better. See the stuff on humility and the fallacy of gray.

Comment author: Boyi 14 December 2011 01:05:00AM 0 points [-]

What I mean by 2 is that we can never be perfect and that the "rationale man" is the wrong ideal.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 December 2011 01:08:38AM 2 points [-]

That's why we call ourselves "aspiring rationalists" not just "rationalists". "rational" is an ideal we measure ourselves against, the way thermodynamic engines are measured against the ideal Carnot cycle.

Read the stuff I linked for more info.

Comment author: dlthomas 14 December 2011 12:43:28AM 1 point [-]

What do you mean by "the paradox of rationality"?

(Have you read this?)