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nyan_sandwich comments on How to Not Lose an Argument - Less Wrong
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I don't understand. Much of our self-identity is symbolic and imaginary. By self-created reality do you mean that our local reality is heavily influenced by us? That our beliefs filter our experiences somewhat? Or that we literally create our own reality? If it's the last one, the standard response is this: There is a process that generates predictions and a process that generates experiences, they don't always match up, so we call the former "beliefs" and the latter "reality". See the map and territory sequence. If that's not what you mean (I hope it is not), make your point.
yes
You have heard of Niche Construction right? If not, it is the ability of an animal to manipulate their reality to meet their personal adaptations. Most animals display some sort of niche construction. Humans are highly advanced architects of niches. In the same way ants build colonies and bees build hives, humans create a type of social hive that is infinitely more complex. The human hive is not built through wax or honey but through symbols and rituals held together by rules and norms. A person living within a human hive cannot escape the necessity of understanding the dynamics of the symbols that hold it together so that they can most efficiently navigate its chambers. Keeping that in mind, it stands that all animals must respect the nature of their environment in order to survive. What is unique to humans is that the environments we primarily interact with are socially constructed niches. That is what I mean when I say human reality is self-created.
Earlier I talked about the paradox of rationality. What I meant by that is simply
-For humans what is socially beneficial is rationally beneficial because human survival is dependent on social solidarity. -What is socially beneficial is not always actually beneficial to the individual or the group.
Thus the paradox of rationality: What is naturally beneficial/harmful is not aligned with what is socially beneficial/harmful.
Do you think that this is an actual paradox or a problem for rationality? If so, then you're probably not using the r-word the same way we are. As far as I can tell, your argument is: To obtain social goods (e.g. status) you sometimes have to sacrifice non-social goods (e.g. spending time playing videogames). Nonetheless, you can still perform expected value calculations by deciding how much you value various "social" versus "non-social" goods, so I don't see how this impinges upon rationality.
My argument is to exist socially is not always alligned with what is nessecary for natural health/survival/happiness, and yet at the same time is nessecary.
We exist in a society where the majority of jobs demand us to remain seated and immobile for the better part of the day. That is incredibly unhealthy. It is also bad for intellectual productivity. It is illogical, and yet for a lot of people it is required.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just another way of saying, "the way we do things is poorly optimized"?