Rationality Quotes: January 2011

2 Post author: wedrifid 03 January 2011 05:24AM

Post quotes.

  • Please post all quotes separately, so that they can be voted up/down separately.  (If they are strongly related, reply to your own comments.  If strongly ordered, then go ahead and post them together.)
  • Do not quote yourself.
  • Do not quote comments/posts from LW. (If you want to exclude OB too create your own quotes thread! OB is entertaining and insightful and all but it is no rationality blog!)
  • No more than 5 quotes per person per monthly thread, please.

 

Comments (268)

Comment author: DSimon 03 January 2011 06:20:37PM *  51 points [-]

In 1736 I lost one of my Sons, a fine Boy of 4 Years old, by the Smallpox taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly and still regret that I had not given it to him by Inoculation. This I mention for the Sake of Parents who omit that Operation on the Supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a Child died under it; my Example showing that the Regret may be the same either way, and that therefore the safer should be chosen.

-- Benjamin Franklin

(To provide some context: at the time, the smallpox vaccine used a live virus, and carried a non-trivial risk of death for the recipient. However, it was still safer on the whole than not being immunized.)

Comment author: KrisC 03 January 2011 07:11:34PM 25 points [-]

I used this quote to help convince a friend to vaccinate her child this past year. It worked.

Comment author: Kutta 04 January 2011 10:58:02AM *  4 points [-]

I assume you first looked at the statistics of specific modern vaccines, then reached a conclusion, then used the quote to persuade your friend about a specific vaccine.

Comment author: WrongBot 04 January 2011 06:04:20PM 14 points [-]

So far as I'm aware, there are currently no publicly available vaccines that lack overwhelming evidence in support of their use. Researching every issue one has even the slightest doubts about is also a failure mode.

Comment author: Kutta 04 January 2011 07:28:32PM 5 points [-]

For example, the necessity of chickenpox vaccines is not quite clear-cut because an infection in childhood - that is usually mild - confers greater immunity benefits than a vaccine. See also flu shots.

Comment author: WrongBot 04 January 2011 08:05:15PM 5 points [-]

Chicken pox vaccination seems to offer small but clear advantages. I wasn't thinking about flu shots earlier, but agree that they are of little value; they don't seem like "real" vaccines to my brain because they're relatively temporary.

I loathe the anti-vaccination movement and am probably over-sensitive on this issue.

Comment author: shokwave 05 January 2011 05:36:24PM *  4 points [-]

For what it's worth, I don't think there is such a thing as over-sensitivity on this issue. Here in Australia, there is an organisation called the Australian Vaccination Network, who attempt to convince parents not to vaccinate their children (due to unfounded fears of autism, mercury poisoning, and even wilder 'Big Pharma' conspiracies).

Children who are too young to be immunised against pertussis (whooping cough) rely on all transmission vectors (ie people they come into contact with) being immune: herd immunity is the term, I think. Pertussis isn't dangerous for a more developed human being, but babies can die of it. One did - warning, sad. So yeah, that justifies loathing.

(Thankfully, the AVN has been all but disbanded thanks to the efforts of skeptic groups)

Comment author: WrongBot 05 January 2011 06:07:04PM 5 points [-]

Yeah, the U.S. situation is similar. Worse, actually, since our idiot antivaxxers seem to be immune to skepticism. (The most prominent example is probably bat-shit insane Indigo mom Jenny McCarthy, who will soon be hosting a talk show on Oprah's new network.)

Comment author: shokwave 06 January 2011 06:28:43AM 3 points [-]

who will soon be hosting a talk show

I concur, your situation is worse.

Comment author: matt 06 January 2011 02:03:41AM *  4 points [-]

When I looked into the infant Hepatitis B vaccine (late 2009) for a girl in an affluent, physically active household in southern Australia, the benefit looked marginal. There are many environments in which the girl could have lived that would have made vaccination clearly beneficial.

It would be surprising if all publicly available vaccines had "overwhelming" evidence in support of their use. That would seem to imply that our public health system hadn't yet approached diminishing returns in searching for things against which to vaccinate, and that large gains were still to be had by vaccinating against more diseases.
(This is a short note on a complicated topic.)

(Vaccines have clearly done much good. Yay Science.)

Comment author: [deleted] 07 January 2011 07:40:11PM 2 points [-]

It would be surprising if all publicly available vaccines had "overwhelming" evidence in support of their use. That would seem to imply that our public health system hadn't yet approached diminishing returns in searching for things against which to vaccinate, and that large gains were still to be had by vaccinating against more diseases.

What makes you think this (your second sentence) is not the case? Plenty of devastating diseases still cannot be prevented by vaccines; that's why people continue to research and create new ones.

Whether all publicly available vaccines (or, more weakly but more relevantly, all recommended vaccines for a particular individual) are worth getting is a separate question, but the recommendations are evidence-based, and I personally believe they represent a guess as good as I can make.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 07 January 2011 09:17:46PM 2 points [-]

Which doesn't imply overwhelming evidence, though. Just enough evidence.

Comment author: [deleted] 07 January 2011 10:13:19PM 2 points [-]

Agreed; I probably wouldn't have said "overwhelming evidence". But I do think there are still large gains to be made by vaccinating against more diseases, like, say, strep.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 07 January 2011 11:07:39PM 2 points [-]

Revelation: The point of diminishing returns we would (in an ideal reach) is where health benefits are proportional to research dollars. Once a vaccine is researched, health benefits should be positive. However, variation, like the variation between regions, means that there are cases where an established vaccine has no benefits.

Comment author: Liron 04 January 2011 12:27:44AM 49 points [-]

It's not renting a house vs. owning a house, it's renting a house vs. renting a bunch of money from the bank.

-- Salman Khan, Khan Academy

Comment author: shokwave 04 January 2011 03:04:22AM 9 points [-]

Upvoted. I have undergraduate commerce friends who want their degrees already so they can start on their mortgage. I asked them if they'd done a comparison with renting. They repeated the cached wisdom of "renting bad, mortgage good", and "look everyone else is doing it". I wish I had had this quote on hand - as it was I said something like "is everyone else mostly made up of commerce majors?" and didn't really get my point across.

Comment author: apophenia 05 January 2011 08:37:43PM 2 points [-]

Could you give a specific video? This looks like an interesting site.

Comment author: Liron 05 January 2011 10:25:13PM 1 point [-]

It's from Renting vs. Buying a home (the quote might be in the part 2 or "detailed analysis" followup videos).

The videos there are on par with a first-rate college lecture. I believe Khan Academy is at the forefront of the growing anti-college revolution.

Comment author: cody-bryce 03 August 2013 12:32:10AM 0 points [-]

This is both insightful and highly quotable.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 04 January 2011 05:46:11AM *  37 points [-]

It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them.

-Fred Mosteller

Comment author: Kutta 03 January 2011 09:17:20AM *  35 points [-]

This idea that whenever something evil happens someone particular can be blamed and punished for it, in life and in politics is hopeless.

-- Hayao Miyazaki

Comment author: sketerpot 04 January 2011 12:39:55AM 9 points [-]

I've always been impressed with how so many of his movies reflect this view, without being preachy about it. Look at Princess Mononoke, for example: there are several violently conflicting sides, and most of them can be described as good, even heroic.

Comment author: Kutta 04 January 2011 10:39:47AM *  12 points [-]

Indeed, Princess Mononoke is one of the least preachy eco-movies ever made, although I have a feeling that its main focus is actually not on environmentalism but on conflict resolution. To quote Miyazaki (from memory, from an awesome documentary/backstage series about Mononoke), the film is to "illustrate adult ways of thinking about issues".

The impetus for posting these Miyazaki quotes was the movie watching streak I went on recently. I've covered all of his movies except Castle of Cagliostro. I also read the Nausicaa manga, and its ending significantly upset me, to such extent that I think I will write a gratuitous Fix Fic that alters the ending to my pleasure. It upset me because nearing the ending Miyazaki constructs a pretty coherent and sensible transhumanist stance of dealing with the in-universe world and its problems, and then utterly demolishes that stance in the finale. Without going into specifics, the protagonist chooses an option that significantly increases the chance that humanity goes extinct in order to a) suspend other-optimizing by (most likely benign, maybe malicious) external forces b) eliminate medium term technological risks of moderate severity.

I think Miyazaki did it to sound deep and because of some underlying deathism. The tragedy of it is that Miyazaki is not a bit stupid, probably an atheist, averts romanticized environmentalism and conservatism all the time and espouses the "uncaring universe" viewpoint. Also, he is a genuinely good-willed guy and a masterclass craftsman and artist. His films reliably make me tear up. Still, he undeniably is tangled up in the head to some extent. In the Nausicaa manga he constructs the transhumanist viewpoint a lot more coherently and logically than the viewpoint of the heroine; poor Nausicaa actually sounds there like a foil. Which is a pity because Nausicaa is a rare example of an extremely idealized main character who manages to avoid being bland and Mary Sue-ish. Because of the ending she goes from "awesome beacon of light and hope" to "she who screwed up the future".

I hope you excuse my rant about a manga that is probably read by few people; I think it has some relevance to LW as a failure-of-rationality case study. Aside from the ending it is also an excellent piece of art that I wholeheartedly recommend.

Comment author: gwern 06 January 2011 08:46:01PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: wiresnips 03 January 2011 08:40:04PM *  26 points [-]

Whatever elaborate, and grotesquely counter-intuitive, underpinnings there might be to familiar reality, it stubbornly continues to be familiar. When Rutherford showed that atoms were mostly empty space, did the ground become any less solid? The truth itself changes nothing.

-- Greg Egan, Quarantine

Comment author: Document 14 May 2011 11:18:49PM *  2 points [-]

Also known as Egan's law. (Personally I think it should be called Stavrianos' law after (I assume) the character, but I wasn't asked.)

Comment author: Maelin 05 January 2011 07:39:59AM 0 points [-]

I like this. Similar vein to the litany of Gendlin.

Comment author: Tesseract 03 January 2011 09:26:36PM *  25 points [-]

The mere fact that it is possible to frame a question does not make it legitimate or sensible to do so. There are many things about which you can ask, "What is its temperature?" or "What color is it?" but you may not ask the temperature question or the color question of, say, jealousy or prayer. Similarly, you are right to ask the "Why" question of a bicycle's mudguards or the Kariba Dam, but at the very least you have no right to assume that the "Why" question deserves an answer when posed about a boulder, a misfortune, Mt. Everest, or the universe. Questions can be simply inappropriate, however heartfelt their framing.

Richard Dawkins, God's Utility Function

Comment author: billswift 04 January 2011 03:28:33PM 3 points [-]

One problem I have often seen in "rationalist" and atheist literature is assuming the meaning of a particular phrase and then attacking it, whether or not it was the intended meaning. "Why" is asked as often about something's causes as about it's purpose. I agree that purpose-why is illegitimate to ask about natural objects, but Mt Everest has a completely legitimate cause-why, depending mostly on plate tectonics. There is nothing that makes the purpose-why which is being attacked, more likely to be the intended meaning of a question than using why to ask about the causes; which would make the attack off target and more likely to do nothing but engender resentment.

Comment author: DSimon 04 January 2011 05:13:24PM *  7 points [-]

I see your point, but I also think it's problematic when people say "why (implication: cause-why)" instead of just saying "how".

When I hear people saying "Why did Mt. Everest form?", I can substitute "How did..." in my head, but it also makes me wonder why they used "why" in the first place. No biggie, but that's only because we know a fair bit about geology and how mountains form.

When it comes to broader questions like "Why does the universe exist?", then the equivocation problem becomes much severer. I think in that particular case, there's a good chance that the questioner is genuinely meaning to ask "purpose-and-cause-why", because the concepts of "purpose-why" and "cause-why" are equivocated (since there's no clear answer for the latter and blank spot for the former, as there is for Mt. Everest).

Comment author: DanArmak 06 January 2011 09:54:48PM 2 points [-]

When I hear people saying "Why did Mt. Everest form?", I can substitute "How did..." in my head, but it also makes me wonder why they used "why" in the first place. No biggie, but that's only because we know a fair bit about geology and how mountains form.

To me it seems a proper use of 'why'. It means: consider the world as it was at some time in the past before Everest existed. Had we been alive then, we could imagine a future where Everest would form, or a future where it (counterfactually) would not form. The correct prediction would have been to say that it would form; we know that in our own present. But of a person reasoning only from what existed in the past, we can ask, why do you predict that Everest will form?

That is, to me, the meaning of the world "why" used about objects: it asks why the past evolved into our present rather than into a counterfactually different one.

Comment author: billswift 04 January 2011 06:05:25PM 1 point [-]

My point, though, was that by assuming the other, rationalists are unnecessarily antagonizing people. Assume the person meant the "how" and answer that. If they meant the other, they will say so, then you can complain that it is an illegitimate question.

Comment author: DSimon 04 January 2011 05:24:29PM *  23 points [-]

The Three Virtues of a Programmer:

  • Laziness - The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it.

  • Impatience - The anger you feel when the computer is being lazy. This makes you write programs that don't just react to your needs, but actually anticipate them. Or at least pretend to.

  • Hubris - Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about.

-- Larry Wall (Programming Perl, 2nd edition), quote somewhat abridged

Comment author: billswift 03 January 2011 07:48:43PM *  21 points [-]

To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn old falsehoods.

-- Robert A Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 January 2011 09:52:37PM 1 point [-]

cough

But keep it here, it got twice as much karma this time round.

Comment author: MichaelGR 03 January 2011 09:31:43PM 18 points [-]

The person you are most afraid to contradict is yourself.

-Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Comment author: DSimon 03 January 2011 06:18:39PM 17 points [-]

All Wars are Follies, very expensive, and very mischievous ones. When will Mankind be convinced of this, and agree to settle their Differences by Arbitration? Were they to do it, even by the Cast of a Dye, it would be better than by Fighting and destroying each other.

-- Benjamin Franklin

Comment author: CronoDAS 04 January 2011 01:32:52AM *  8 points [-]

The unpleasant truth is that war does have one useful function: it brings peace. Let it.

-- Edward Luttwak, "Give War a Chance"

Comment author: NihilCredo 04 January 2011 03:47:31PM 5 points [-]

war, n.: a challenge to a contest that cannot be refused.

Comment author: DSimon 04 January 2011 04:49:26PM 2 points [-]

A good reason to accept such challenges, but not a good reason to issue them...

Comment author: Kutta 03 January 2011 09:18:45AM 17 points [-]

It’s neither our economy or our multimedia that I’m most concerned about, but whether the kids are lively and in good shape. I mean, as long as the people are doing fine it doesn’t matter if the nation is in poverty.

-- Hayao Miyazaki

Comment author: scav 05 January 2011 09:25:10AM *  16 points [-]

If you show me
That, say, homeopathy works,
Then I will change my mind
I’ll spin on a fucking dime
I’ll be embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through the streets yelling
It’s a miracle! Take physics and bin it!
Water has memory!
And while its memory of a long lost drop of onion juice is Infinite
It somehow forgets all the poo it’s had in it!

You show me that it works and how it works
And when I’ve recovered from the shock
I will take a compass and carve Fancy That on the side of my cock.

Tim Minchin, Storm

Dammit, how do you get line-breaks? It's a poem, but the stanzas get flowed into paragraphs.

Comment author: Nominull 08 January 2011 05:32:40AM *  7 points [-]

That one seemed a little preachy and "rah-rah science" to me. I much preferred his "Fuck the Poor":

Fuck the poor!
I'm not pretending anymore
That I really give two shits about
Some kids in Bangalore.
I'm more interested in footie
Than seeing the Solomons rebuilt,
But I'll give you 50 bucks to take away my guilt.

Comment author: Document 26 May 2011 06:21:01AM 1 point [-]

I like to think of it as another post that's about not just about the quote itself but how a Less Wrong context completely changes its meaning.

Comment author: Wilka 05 January 2011 06:41:12PM 5 points [-]

For those who haven't heard the whole thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUQn0HhGEk

Comment author: wedrifid 05 January 2011 10:53:01AM 2 points [-]

Two spaces at the end of a line.

Comment author: scav 05 January 2011 01:12:56PM 1 point [-]

thanks!

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 05 January 2011 01:44:23PM 0 points [-]

please correct "it's memory" to "its memory" too.

Nice poem, btw :-)

Comment author: scav 06 January 2011 08:55:30AM 1 point [-]

OK

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 January 2011 08:27:38PM 15 points [-]

Let us be certain of a fact before being concerned with its cause. It is true that this method is too lengthy for most people who naturally run to the cause and overlook the certitude about facts; but at last we will avoid the ridicule of finding the cause of what does not exist.

Bernard le Bovier de Fontenelle

Recently quoted on the web in relation to acupuncture studies.

Comment author: Tesseract 08 January 2011 06:05:47AM 1 point [-]

This is very good advice -- especially since postulating a cause probably increases your credence for a purported fact. Quote filed away and advice taken to heart.

Also, this ties in well with Your Strength as a Rationalist.

Comment author: billswift 03 January 2011 07:44:47PM *  14 points [-]

When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means.

-- H Beam Piper, Space Viking

Comment author: orthonormal 03 January 2011 07:51:26PM 10 points [-]
Comment author: billswift 03 January 2011 09:41:48PM 4 points [-]

I didn't realize I had used it before. I hadn't done that much commenting; but starting with last set of "Rationality Quotes" I decided to just start working down my Quotes and Aphorisms file; it has been growing for about 14 years now, and I thought I would share some of them.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 03 January 2011 08:35:52PM 6 points [-]

Now there was a book that was not like what the title would lead you to expect.

Comment author: Kutta 03 January 2011 09:20:55AM *  14 points [-]

I definitely think there is great art out there that was solely designed to give people what they want; in film, someone like Chaplin comes to mind. I mean, giving people what they want is an art unto itself, but I think the real challenge in that method is finding a way to give them what they want while giving them more.

-- Jonathan Henderson

Comment author: Nevin 05 January 2011 05:33:20AM *  13 points [-]

The new XKCD is highly relevant.

Okay, middle school students, it's the first Tuesday in February.

This means that by law and custom, we must spend the morning reading though the Wikipedia article List of Common Misconceptions, so you can spend the rest of your lives being a little less wrong.

The guests at every party you'll ever attend thank us in advance.

Subtext: I wish I lived in this universe.

Comment author: wedrifid 05 January 2011 07:11:13AM 7 points [-]

Wait, the mouseover says:

'Grandpa, what was it like in the Before time?'

'It was hell. People went around saying glass was a slow-flowing liquid. You folks these days don't know how good you have it.'"

It just occurred to me that my museum visits as a child deceived me. That hundred year old glass didn't flow! Lies! They've found panes upside down and sideways (with respect to thickness differentials) too.

Comment author: wedrifid 05 January 2011 07:41:00AM 3 points [-]

Reading through the misconceptions page I discover that meteorites are not hot when they hit the earth! And after all this time thinking I could use them to finish off trolls.

Comment author: Broggly 23 February 2011 01:24:42PM 1 point [-]

My first year Geology lecturer said that apart from wanting to avoid contaminating the sample, the best reason to avoid touching fresh meteorites with your bare hands is the risk of freezer burn.

Comment author: MichaelGR 03 January 2011 09:33:59PM 13 points [-]

In a strong enough wind, even turkeys can fly.

-Saying of investors

Comment author: Dagon 03 January 2011 09:37:21PM 9 points [-]

I've heard a similar aeronautical saying: Of course pigs can fly, they just need sufficient thrust.

Comment author: DSimon 03 January 2011 09:41:09PM *  1 point [-]

It's just a little airborne, it's just a little airborne, it's still good!

  • Homer Simpson (referring to a roast pig experiencing a series of diverting events)
Comment author: quanticle 04 January 2011 04:14:49PM 3 points [-]

I actually like the next statement more:

Awww... its gone isn't it?

At least Homer Simpson accepts that the pig is gone.

Comment author: simplyeric 05 January 2011 05:41:49PM 1 point [-]

Technically off-topic...but I've never understood why people think turkeys can't fly. I've even seen an ornithologist quoted in the NYTimes saying it (when a live turkey was found on an upper level balcony). Maybe it's just domesticated turkeys...but I've definitely seen wild turkeys fly (and no, it's got nothing to do with the whiskey).

Which brings me to an interesting (to me) question: why do people base a piece of "wisdom" on a reference that is untrue to begin with?

[and in closing: You don't win friends with salad.]

Comment author: MichaelGR 05 January 2011 07:21:04PM 1 point [-]

That's a good question. If I had to guess, I would say that most people used to be familiar with the domestic turkey that is being fattened for thanksgiving dinner (or whatever), and those probably can't fly very well, if at all.

Comment author: gerg 03 January 2011 09:08:12PM 13 points [-]

It is a habit of mankind to entrust to careless hope what they long for, and to use sovereign reason to thrust aside what they do not desire.

-- Thucydides

Comment author: gwern 06 January 2011 08:54:28PM *  5 points [-]

If I may, I prefer the fuller version:

"...their judgment was based more upon blind wishing than upon any sound prevision; for it is a habit of mankind to entrust to careless hope what they long for, and to use sovereign reason to thrust aside what they do not fancy."

Also, dupe: http://lesswrong.com/lw/2ev/rationality_quotes_july_2010/28gb?c=1

Comment author: gerg 10 January 2011 10:09:01AM 0 points [-]

Ha - that post refers to Diax's Rake, which is what happened to spur me to find the Thucydides quote in the first place!

In other news, I've invented this incredible device I call a "wheel".

Comment author: Nominull 07 January 2011 08:15:31PM 12 points [-]

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

-John F. Kennedy

Comment author: Nornagest 07 January 2011 08:21:21PM 2 points [-]

There's a certain irony in that, coming from a politician as adept at making and using myths as JFK was.

Comment author: Nominull 07 January 2011 09:20:35PM 6 points [-]

The enemy of his enemy was his friend.

Comment author: [deleted] 07 January 2011 07:53:08PM *  12 points [-]

Dirge without Music
Edna St. Vincent Millay

I am not resigned to the shutting away of loving hearts in the hard ground.
So it is, and so it will be, for so it has been, time out of mind:
Into the darkness they go, the wise and the lovely. Crowned
With lilies and with laurel they go; but I am not resigned.

Lovers and thinkers, into the earth with you.
Be one with the dull, the indiscriminate dust.
A fragment of what you felt, of what you knew,
A formula, a phrase remains, --- but the best is lost.

The answers quick & keen, the honest look, the laughter, the love,
They are gone. They have gone to feed the roses. Elegant and curled
Is the blossom. Fragrant is the blossom. I know. But I do not approve.
More precious was the light in your eyes than all the roses in the world.

Down, down, down into the darkness of the grave
Gently they go, the beautiful, the tender, the kind;
Quietly they go, the intelligent, the witty, the brave.
I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned.

Comment author: Document 05 January 2011 12:41:30AM *  12 points [-]

There should be a word for the things we do not because we want to but because we want to be the kind of person who wants to.

-- A Softer World #626

Possibly related: Cached Selves and some of its outbound links, and Violent Acres' idea of self-brainwashing (bottom of post).

Comment author: MichaelHoward 04 January 2011 08:49:53PM 12 points [-]

You can make a small program (say, 1,000 lines) work through brute force even when breaking every rule of good style. For a larger program, this is simply not so. If the structure of a 100,000-line program is bad, you will find that new errors are introduced as fast as old ones are removed.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Comment author: PhilGoetz 05 January 2011 01:05:23AM 5 points [-]

They should teach this in college!

I don't recall my professors ever making the point that the way we wrote short programs for class would not always work on large programs.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 06 January 2011 12:00:19PM 3 points [-]

Interesting, it seems like best practices are easy to teach (just follow these simple rules!), and the dysfunctional thing I'd expect would be for professors to tell you to follow them but not tell you why.

Updated.

Comment author: Nornagest 06 January 2011 06:31:50PM 4 points [-]

the dysfunctional thing I'd expect would be for professors to tell you to follow them but not tell you why.

That's the failure mode that most of my profs fell into. When I was in school, there was a strong emphasis on correct style -- in the extreme case, for example, some professors would fail an assignment if it didn't have a high enough fraction of comments to functional code -- but very little to suggest a coherent theory of software engineering.

From what I remember, most of my peers approached it with the attitude of being just another hoop to jump through.

Comment author: Document 07 January 2011 09:43:35AM *  1 point [-]

One dysfunctional thing I'd expect would be the existence or perceived existence of a contrary movement, using the word "dogma" and saying things like "worse is better" and "if it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid" and "those ivory-tower academics never have to deal with real-world problems" and "when theory and practice clash, theory loses".

For example, this article makes a specific point about a specific situation (mixed in with some crazy), but might still leave one with an impression of "boo carefully planned programs, yay big hairy messes where you don't know what half the API calls are for".

Also, general hyperbolic discounting and programmers just not caring.

Comment author: Document 07 January 2011 07:01:02PM 1 point [-]

Unexpectedly semi-relevant: the latest xkcd, Good Code.

Comment author: Document 08 January 2011 07:17:42PM 0 points [-]

Also, sort of implied by that: methodologies that don't actually work.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 06 January 2011 06:14:58PM *  1 point [-]

Maybe they do, now. When I was in CS, we had no classes on software engineering. But that was a long time ago, in CS terms. So you should not believe that I know what I'm talking about.

Comment author: MichaelGR 03 January 2011 09:32:11PM 12 points [-]

Take the bettors in the racetrack experiment. Thirty seconds before putting down their money, they had been tentative and uncertain; thirty seconds after the deed, they were significantly more optimistic ans self-assured. The act of making a final decision--in this case, of buying a ticket--had been the critical factor. Once a stand had been taken, the need for consistency pressured these people to bring what they felt and believed into line with what they had already done. They simply convinced themselves that they had made the right choice and, no doubt, felt better and it all.

-Robert B. Cialdini, Influence: The psychology of Persuasion, p.59

Comment author: JohannesDahlstrom 04 January 2011 09:23:32PM 11 points [-]

This is how Vetinari thinks, his soul exulted. Plans can break down. You cannot plan the future. Only presumptuous fools plan. The wise man steers.

—Terry Pratchett, Making Money

Although thought by a madman in the book, there seems to be truth in this quote. People often seem to think of the future as a coherent, specific story not unlike the one woven by the brain from the past events. Unpleasant surprises happen when the real events inevitably deviate from those imagined.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 January 2011 10:31:55PM 1 point [-]

Even on the Discworld, they have Perceptual Control Theory!

Comment author: shokwave 07 January 2011 04:17:32AM 0 points [-]

Terry Pratchett has an unusual art of presenting fantasy worlds full of nails.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 05 January 2011 01:03:31AM 1 point [-]

That's how I play chess.

Comment author: AndySimpson 04 January 2011 07:01:56PM 11 points [-]

"...natural selection built the brain to survive in the world and only incidentally to understand it at a depth greater than is needed to survive. The proper task of scientists is to diagnose and correct the misalignment." -- E. O. Wilson

Comment author: MichaelGR 03 January 2011 09:32:45PM 11 points [-]

Where all men think alike, no one thinks very much.

-Walter Lippmann

Comment author: Normal_Anomaly 06 January 2011 01:03:52PM *  1 point [-]

The fact that the above comment got a lot of upvotes (i.e, widespread approval) is ironic.

Comment author: shokwave 06 January 2011 01:32:01PM *  2 points [-]

There is a distinction to be made between "thinking alike things" and "thinking in alike ways". Because the world is crazy and most people don't even know there are ways of thinking (and those that do most often profess that everything is subjective), any statement "think alike" commonly is interpreted to mean "think alike things", which is truly a good indicator of scarcity of thought in the common case.

(LessWrong is a near-complete inversion; where all/most thinking alike is strong evidence that a huge amount of thought has been happening)

Comment author: Normal_Anomaly 07 January 2011 12:41:24AM 0 points [-]

True and well thought out.

Comment author: gwern 07 January 2011 04:11:49PM 10 points [-]

"The usual touchstone of whether what someone asserts is mere persuasion or at least a subjective conviction, i.e., firm belief, is betting. Often someone pronounces his propositions with such confident and inflexible defiance that he seems to have entirely laid aside all concern for error. A bet disconcerts him. Sometimes he reveals that he is persuaded enough for one ducat but not for ten. For he would happily bet one, but at ten he suddenly becomes aware of what he had not previously noticed, namely that it is quite possible that he has erred."

--Immanuel Kant, Critique of Pure Reason (A824/B852); seen on http://kenfeinstein.blogspot.com/2011/01/kant-on-betting-and-prediction-markets.html as linked by Marginal Revolution

Comment author: simplyeric 11 January 2011 01:53:21PM 1 point [-]

Wow that's interesting...but really weird.

What if you have a firm conviction that betting is immoral?

Then, you prove your belief by NOT betting.

I think the "betting proof" is a cultural thing. Of course...I wouldn't bet much on that.

Comment author: fiddlemath 03 January 2011 08:47:39AM *  10 points [-]

Irony has only emergency use. Carried over time it is the voice of the trapped who have come to enjoy their cage.

Lewis Hyde, Alcohol and Poetry.

Comment author: fiddlemath 03 January 2011 08:51:38AM 13 points [-]

Via David Foster Wallace, A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again.

To explain - I'm finding lately that the occurrence of irony is a useful warning that something is wrong; some current, important contradiction is being papered over. Sometimes the contradiction is obvious, yes, but among people with the habit of irony, sometimes that contradiction is buried deep enough that the ironist doesn't know where the contradiction lies.

Comment author: Tesseract 03 January 2011 06:54:16AM 10 points [-]

Do not bear this single habit of mind, to think that what you say and nothing else is true. ...For a man, though he be wise, it is no shame to learn – learn many things, and not maintain his views too rigidly.

Sophocles, Antigone

Comment author: [deleted] 25 January 2011 02:18:50AM *  9 points [-]

Now, most people believe in reason the way they believe in cold showers; it's O.K. if you don't overdo it. Very few people are so insensitive as to go around applying logic to other people's beliefs...

...Fenwick has no understanding of such things. I think I should tell you that Fenwick enjoys reasoning. He uses his mind the way a sprinter uses his shoes: to get from one point to another with a maximum of speed and a minimum of nonsense.

--Leo Rosten, "An Infuriating Man," People I Have Known, Loved, or Admired.

Comment author: katydee 10 January 2011 12:50:37AM 8 points [-]

"The incredibly powerful and the incredibly stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. This can be rather uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."

--Dr. Who

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 January 2011 12:10:57AM *  8 points [-]

The very presence of surprising false results that take some time to get refuted might give scientists the illusion that they are getting somewhere - since the field changes all the time - and bravely applying the scientific method - since we are bold enough to repudiate the fashionable hypotheses of ten years ago.

Olivier Morin

Comment author: RobinZ 07 January 2011 08:03:23PM 8 points [-]

The effort to understand how an airplane flies is sometimes called "Theory of Flight." Under that name, it has a bad reputation with pilots. Most pilots think that theory is useless, that practice is what does it. Yet you can't help having a theory: whatever you do, from peeling potatoes to flying airplanes, you go on the basis of some mental image of what's what — and that's all "theory" amounts to. And if your ideas of what's what are correct, you will do it well.

Wolfgang Langewiesche, ''Stick and Rudder: An Explanation of the Art of Flying'', Part I, "Wings". (via)

Comment author: Nominull 07 January 2011 08:10:32PM *  3 points [-]

I don't think this is really true (but have not been able to downvote anything for quite some time). You can have a functional understanding of how something works (if you do A to it it makes B happen) without having a model of how it works internally. This sort of modeling is what the "theory" practicalists disdain concerns itself with, and they may do well to ignore it.

Because we have limited computational abilities, we will often do better on non-novel problems by learning a few useful patterns than by deriving everything from the underlying model. There is a reason why in elementary-school math classes we do not just give the children the Peano axioms and say "have at it".

Comment author: RobinZ 07 January 2011 09:06:27PM 8 points [-]

Next paragraph in the book:

What is wrong with "Theory of Flight," from the pilot's point of view, is not that it is theory. What's wrong is that it is the theory of the wrong thing – it usually becomes the theory of building the airplane rather than of flying it. It goes deeply – much too deeply for a pilot's needs – into problems of aerodynamics; it even gives the pilot a formula by which to calculate his lift! But it neglects those phases of flight that interest the pilot most. It often fails to show the pilot the most important fact of the art of piloting – the Angle of Attack, and how it changes in flight. And it usually fails to give him a clear understanding of the various flight conditions in which an airplane can proceed, from fast flight to mush and stall. This whole book, and especially its first chapters, are an attempt to refocus "Theory of Flight," away from things that the pilot does not need to know about, and upon the things that actually puzzle him when he flies.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 10 January 2011 01:37:26AM 2 points [-]

The synthesis here is roughly: Practical experience in a sort of Giant Lookup Table fashion but has bugs and fails in certain situations. Theory may have limits, but its main flaw is that it includes many useless things. To help those with practical experience, you need an awareness of theory and an awareness of the bugs in practical experience.

Anecdotal evidence: Most of driving, I learned through practice and instruction. I learned to brake smoothly only after my dad told me the underlying physics.

Comment author: RobinZ 12 January 2011 10:46:50PM *  1 point [-]

Thinking it over, it's also a matter of extrapolation. From practice, you can effectively fit a curve to the behavior, but you don't learn what happens outside the domain where that curve fits - and so, when you stall the wing or lose grip on the rear tires, your reactions will be exactly wrong, because you're playing by rules that don't apply any more. And yes, you can learn to fit the point of switchover and learn to fit the behavior in the new regime, in time ... but if you crash, first, it will be very expensive.

Comment author: Will_Sawin 13 January 2011 01:00:45AM 1 point [-]

Agreed, both are advantages of theory.

Comment author: RobinZ 02 November 2012 05:52:50AM 0 points [-]

I would like to belatedly apologize for the terseness of my response - I realize now that I was basically punishing you for not hearing what I didn't say, which was wrong of me.

In point of fact, I think Langewiesche was not quite correct - you can do things well without theory. Look at control systems. What theory lets you do is predict which practices will do well. We don't give children the Peano axioms, but we try to make sure what we teach them accords with those axioms.

Comment author: Costanza 03 January 2011 09:09:09PM 8 points [-]

To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle.

George Orwell

Comment author: Kutta 03 January 2011 09:20:17AM 8 points [-]

Repetitions of these chores are troublesome, but it’s the very essence of any kind of job I’m aware of (…) It’s very easy to serve good ramen just once, but to keep making them well and not bore customers… it’s difficult.

--Hayao Miyazaki

Comment author: dclayh 03 January 2011 09:57:34PM 12 points [-]

Cf. the Peter de Blanc tweet

As soon as you notice a pattern in your work, automate it.

Comment author: DSimon 04 January 2011 05:18:22PM 2 points [-]

This should be the motto of CS folk and programmers everywhere.

Comment author: ata 17 January 2011 01:15:15AM 7 points [-]

Behold the fool saith, “Put not all thine eggs in the one basket” — which is but a manner of saying, “Scatter your money and your attention;” but the wise man saith, “Put all your eggs in the one basket and WATCH THAT BASKET.”

— Mark Twain (in Pudd'nhead Wilson)

Comment author: gwern 17 January 2011 02:26:50AM 4 points [-]

Mark Twain is an uncommonly bad source for business advice, IMO. A watched stock never grows.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 January 2011 09:44:40PM 7 points [-]

A book is like a mirror: If an ass peers into it, you can't expect an apostle to look out.

Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

Comment author: billswift 03 January 2011 07:48:08PM *  7 points [-]

`Wanting to know' is all there is in education.

-- Eric Laithewaite, Invitation to Engineering

I think that's a bit of an overstatement, but it is definitely the key.

Comment author: simplyeric 05 January 2011 07:00:37PM 3 points [-]

I definitely like this statement...but I am not sure I agree with it.

Much learning is passive and not a result of wanting or even trying. And, a skillful teacher can cause learning (and by extension education) to happen without the student wanting to learn, or knowing that he/she is learning.

I suppose there is a specific distinction between "education" and "learning", although I am not sure if it functionally boils down to this.

Comment author: HonoreDB 12 January 2011 01:18:42AM 6 points [-]

Mr. Loughner said he asked the lawmaker, “How do you know words mean anything?” recalled Mr. Montanaro. He said Mr. Loughner was “aggravated” when Ms. Giffords, after pausing for a couple of seconds, “responded to him in Spanish and moved on with the meeting.”

Wall Street Journal

Comment author: gwern 12 January 2011 04:08:37AM 0 points [-]

That's actually a pretty witty reply on Giffords's part. I think better of her now.

Comment author: MichaelHoward 07 January 2011 11:38:56PM 6 points [-]

Fall down seven times, stand up eight.

-- Japanese Proverb

Comment author: HonoreDB 08 January 2011 06:20:34AM *  10 points [-]

Never understood the math behind that one. Do I start off lying down?

Comment author: Will_Sawin 10 January 2011 05:42:27AM 2 points [-]

You could end up double-standing. Transcend to a new level of up? Walk up some stairs, perhaps?

Comment author: SilasBarta 10 January 2011 11:50:08PM 0 points [-]

Indeed. What is to standing, as standing is to sitting? What is to walking, as walking is to crawling? What is to humans, as humans are to their pets? What is to 3D movement, as 3D movement is to 2D?

Or something.

Comment author: [deleted] 11 January 2011 12:30:45AM *  8 points [-]

What is to standing, as standing is to sitting?

Jumping.

What is to walking, as walking is to crawling?

Running.

What is to humans, as humans are to their pets?

Dragons.

What is to 3D movement, as 3D movement is to 2D?

4D movement.

Comment author: Broggly 23 February 2011 01:10:32PM 3 points [-]

What is to walking, as walking is to crawling?

Hopping. Each time you halve the number of limbs involved.

What is to standing, as standing is to sitting?

Standing like a chicken, with your knee and hip joints bent the wrong way.

Comment author: Desrtopa 10 January 2011 04:21:41AM 1 point [-]

I always figured one of the times you get up is supposed to be symbolic, but I'm not sure what of.

Comment author: Broggly 23 February 2011 01:06:02PM 0 points [-]

That's how I usually start the day.

Comment author: wedrifid 11 January 2011 02:07:15PM 0 points [-]

Or, you know... crawling.

Comment author: ata 10 January 2011 03:09:29AM 0 points [-]

Ah, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed that.

Comment author: ninjacolin 10 January 2011 01:52:32AM 0 points [-]

you start standing, you end standing.

Comment author: ata 10 January 2011 03:09:16AM 1 point [-]

Then it would be "Fall down seven times, stand up seven."

Comment author: ninjacolin 10 January 2011 06:25:08AM *  6 points [-]

Okay, let's get super technical. May as well, it is LW after all.

You start off as a baby who can't even crawl. Eventually, after much effort and encouragement from loving voices you get your feet below you and you stand up.

Now that you're standing (1) you face your first challenge: Walking. You take one leg and put most of it in front of the other, you fall. (1) Why? Because you forgot to move your foot. So you stand up again, (2) and you get your leg AND your foot in front of the other. You crash down on the dog. (2) Gotta get that balance in check, babe! Alright, so we're up again. (3) You kick that leg forward, you stick an arm out the other way to spare the dog further discomfort and splash, (3) there goes the jube jubes on the coffee table. You're in heaven! Your mom perks up from the news to see what's going on (OF COURSE she notices as soon as the candies are involved) She grabs you, yells at you for stealing candies and wonders how you got yourself in so much trouble. While she steals away your candies, you decide it's time to find more adventures. In a flash you're up on your feet (3) this time you're using the coffee table to stabilize. Your mom takes a glance over and she's shocked! "ooo my god my baby is wal.." she's cut off when your ignorant older brother comes in and whisks you off your feet just before your first successful step. Some commotion ensues between the older people. Eventually you're placed back down on your bum to start again at your leisure... (4) or is it? Now there's a crowd. They're all wanting something from you. You have to think about this of course. You can't take the pressure, you gotta get out of there and fast. Bam! (5) you're back up and trying desperately to get away from these oogling weirdos. 1 step, 2 steps, 3 steps, you panic, you fall! (5) They're still on your tail, back up again, (6) "just head for the door" you think to yourself. "The crowd's only getting uglier!" Finally you make it, the people behind you are going nuts, can't look back now.. The doorway is right there, and it's open cause dad was doing the lawn, you trip just before the threshold. (6) you roll out the door, back flip up to your feet, and you make a run for it! The crowd goes wild! You get smoked by an oncoming vehicle (7) (your sister's tricycle) But you dust it off and get back up (8) now you're free and running! A clean escape!

Comment author: gwern 10 January 2011 11:44:42PM 3 points [-]

What on earth?

Comment author: arundelo 10 January 2011 03:04:00AM 1 point [-]

HonoreDB was pointing out that if you start standing, then the number of times you've stood up can never exceed the number of times you've fallen down (unless you can stand up while you're already standing).

Comment author: JoshuaZ 10 January 2011 04:41:07AM 2 points [-]

You could sit down without falling.

Comment author: simplyeric 11 January 2011 01:46:58PM 1 point [-]

maybe, as ninjacolin describes, you have to stand up once BEFORE you fall down. So, in fact, to end up standing, you MUST stand up one more time than you fall down (unless you assume that everyone starts out standing, which they don't).

Is that what the proverb means? Not necessarilly... but the math isn't wrong.

Comment author: MichaelHoward 07 January 2011 11:14:17PM 6 points [-]

No trumpets sound when the important decisions of our life are made. Destiny is made known silently.

-- Agnes de Mille

Comment author: gwern 07 January 2011 11:18:55PM 0 points [-]

Source: De Mille, Dance to the Piper 77; according to http://books.google.com/books?id=ihFTOcU8kAUC

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 January 2011 09:45:31PM 6 points [-]

"Do you know, in 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't important."

Doctor Who (written by Steven Moffatt)

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 January 2011 09:45:00PM 6 points [-]

We must not seek to abstract from the busts of the great Greeks and Romans rules for the visible form of genius as long as we cannot contrast them with Greek blockheads.

Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

Comment author: Nic_Smith 04 January 2011 06:21:24AM *  6 points [-]

"If I were not here, what would you do?" asked Holo.

"First I'd work out whether it was true or not, then I'd pretend to believe his story."

"And why is that?"

"If it's true, I can turn a profit just by going along with it. If it's a lie, then someone somewhere is up to something -- but I can still come out ahead if I keep my eyes and ears open."

"Mm. And given that I am here, and I've told you he's lying, then..."

Lawrence finally realized what had been eluding him. "Ah."

"Heh. See, there was nothing over which to agonize so. Either way you'll be pretending to accept his proposal," said Holo, grinning. Lawrence had no retort.

-- Isuna Hasikura, Spice & Wolf [tr. Paul Starr]

Comment author: Document 05 January 2011 12:43:33AM 2 points [-]

I'd probably understand that better if I knew the context.

Comment author: Nic_Smith 05 January 2011 01:47:28AM *  2 points [-]

Lawrence is a traveling merchant in Spice & Wolf who's received a proposition from someone to buy information on upcoming changes in the precious metal content of a type of silver coin; the cost is a relatively small fixed fee plus a cut of the profits if the information is accurate. Holo, the eponymous "wisewolf," is essentially telling Lawrence that he has a dominant strategy.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 05 January 2011 01:07:01AM *  0 points [-]

Agreed. I have no clue what it means. I saw Spice & Wolf on the manga shelf in Borders... is it worth reading?

Comment author: gwern 05 January 2011 03:36:12AM *  3 points [-]

It's nowhere near as good as MoR in a LW sense, not as good as "The Cambist and Lord Iron" at teaching economics through fiction, and you would not find it an intellectual challenge in any sense, but in the general context of Japanese light novels, it's good, I think.

(At $8 and what I remember of your comments, I would give 60% odds you would not regret the purchase, and 5-10% you'd like it 'quite a bit' or something along those lines. If you do buy it, please tell me before you finish so I can register this as a prediction on PredictionBook.com.)

Comment author: gwern 26 January 2011 08:21:03PM 5 points [-]

"The Fundamental Attribution Error is the reason why we love TV shows like The Dog Whisperer or Supernanny, in which seem­ingly irredeemable dogs and kids are tamed by outsiders who come in with a new system of discipline. At the beginning of the episodes, we're presented with a dog that bites everything in sight, or a child who won't obey the simplest of commands, and we sim­ply can't avoid jumping to conclusions about their character: That dog is vicious. That boy is a terror. And when they're reformed, in the course of a short intervention, it blows our minds.

If we could cure ourselves of the Fundamental Attribution Error, these shows would seem obvious to the point of absurdity. (It would be like watching a show whose premise was that if you take scalding-hot liquids-dangerous and slippery-and stick them in the freezer for a long time, they renounce their fiery former selves and turn to ice!)"

--Chip Heath & Dan Heath, Switch: How To Change Things When Change Is Hard, pg 181

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 January 2011 08:29:08PM 0 points [-]

I like this and agree with the sentiment, but I suspect it's not quite true as stated.

At least, I can enjoy watching someone build a structure out of a pile of wood, even though I don't attribute any kind of fundamental pile-nature to the wood and am not shocked by that nature being subverted... I just enjoy watching someone exercise skill. I can imagine enjoying watching a skilled behavior-modification expert construct cooperation out of conflict in the same way.

Comment author: Perplexed 19 January 2011 10:54:49PM 4 points [-]

There is no harm in being sometimes wrong — especially if one is promptly found out.

John Maynard Keynes

Comment author: Dreaded_Anomaly 09 January 2011 04:28:20AM *  4 points [-]

If you're confused, get enthused.

— Kyoshi Antonio Fournier

Comment author: RobinZ 07 January 2011 03:26:54AM *  4 points [-]

Errare humanum est, sed perseverare diabolicum.

Rough translation: To err is human, but to persist in error diabolical.

(Saw the quote in William Langewiesche's Fly By Wire; it is often attributed to Seneca on the Webs, but I can find no citation.)

Comment author: NihilCredo 11 January 2011 01:48:57AM 4 points [-]

it is often attributed to Seneca on the Webs, but I can find no citation

A pagan-raised Stoic like Seneca was fairly unlikely to use infernal metaphors.

There are aphorisms similar to the first half among classical authors, but the current formulation originated with St. Augustine.

Comment author: lukeprog 05 January 2011 08:42:26AM 4 points [-]

I can't remember the source of the quote I'm thinking of, but it goes something like this:

"People always remark that I know so much about science and so little about celebrities, but they fail to see that the two are related."

Does anyone know the original quote?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 05 January 2011 09:16:43AM 23 points [-]

There's this:

People are always amazed by how much "free time" I have.
They're also amazed that I don't know who Ally McBeal is.
Frankly, I'm amazed that they can't make the connection."
-- Robert Wenzlaff
Comment author: lukeprog 05 January 2011 10:43:29AM 1 point [-]

Maybe that was it and I spruced it up in my head! Thanks.

Comment author: orthonormal 07 January 2011 03:59:40AM 0 points [-]

Related, from The Onion.

Comment author: RobinZ 05 January 2011 05:16:47PM 0 points [-]

Where did you find that quote originally?

Comment author: gwern 06 January 2011 09:05:53PM 2 points [-]

He posted it quite a while ago: http://lesswrong.com/lw/n8/rationality_quotes_9/

I was unable to track it any further - all the Google hits seem to trace back to this or the original posting.

Comment author: ata 06 January 2011 09:53:28PM 3 points [-]

Here's one of a few mailing list postings where he has it as his signature.

Comment author: AndySimpson 04 January 2011 06:56:41PM 4 points [-]

"Fanatics may suppose, that dominion is founded on grace, and that saints alone inherit the earth; but the civil magistrate very justly puts these sublime theorists on the same footing with common robbers, and teaches them by the severest discipline, that a rule, which, in speculation, may seem the most advantageous to society, may yet be found, in practice, totally pernicious and destructive." -- David Hume

More of an anti-fanaticism quotation, but it seems to belong.

Comment author: billswift 03 January 2011 07:45:46PM *  4 points [-]

A large part of education is learning to use your own judgement.

-- Ardath Mayhar, Khi to Freedom

Comment author: NihilCredo 11 January 2011 02:38:18AM 3 points [-]

[T]he modern student has no appreciation of the modes of thinking, the prejudices, and other difficulties agains which the theory of probability had to struggle when it was new. Nowadays newspapers report on samples of public opinion, and the magic of statistics embraces all phases of life to the extent that young girls watch the statistics of their chances to get married. Thus everyone has acquired a feeling for the meaning of statements such as "the chances are three in five". Vague as it is, this intuition serves as background and guide for the first step.

William Feller, An Introduction to Probability Theory and its Applications

Comment author: [deleted] 04 January 2011 07:01:34AM *  3 points [-]

del

Comment author: Nic_Smith 04 January 2011 05:50:46AM *  3 points [-]

I'd say we are stubborn and hard for amateurs to manipulate, but that organized professionals can manipulate us when circumstances allow them to study a situation far more than we can. -- Robin Hanson, in response to Bryan Caplan, "Are We Stubborn or Manipulable?" Econlog

The post that he's responding to is also interesting.

Comment author: wedrifid 04 January 2011 07:07:29AM 1 point [-]

Although the very question "Are We Stubborn or Manipulable?" invites a post on how to manipulate people by harnessing their stubbornness. I've won plenty of games that way. :)

Comment author: MichaelGR 03 January 2011 09:33:38PM 3 points [-]

We will learn an enormous amount in the very short term, quite a bit in the medium term and absolutely nothing in the long term.

-Jeremy Grantham, about the stock market/economy.

Comment author: diegocaleiro 03 January 2011 06:32:40AM 3 points [-]

If you just have a single problem to solve, then fine, go ahead and use a neural network. But if you want to do science and understand how to choose architectures, or how to go to a new problem, you have to understand what different architectures can and cannot do. -- Marvin Minsky

Comment author: DSimon 03 January 2011 06:24:33PM 8 points [-]

Reminds me of this story.

Comment author: lukeprog 16 January 2011 07:38:51AM *  2 points [-]

Our assent ought to be regulated by the grounds of probability.

-- John Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, book 4, chapter 16

Comment author: TheRev 11 January 2011 02:12:27AM 2 points [-]

scientia potentia est

Knowledge is power.

--This quote is attributed to Sir Francis Bacon, but we don't really know.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 05 January 2011 01:01:15AM *  2 points [-]

This is more depressing than inspiring, but the final sentence is worth contemplating. It's from a review of a short book by the 19th-century economist Francis Edgeworth, showing how to begin a mathematical (utilitarian) treatment of morality.

His style, if not obscure, is implicit, so that the reader is left to puzzle out every important sentence like an enigma. It is probable that most of the propositions are worth puzzling out, and that they would be puzzled out if some great pecuniary matter like a great lawsuit or the design for a great engineering work depended upon their comprehension.

WS Jevons (1881), "Review of Edgeworth's Mathematical Psychics", Mind, Vol. 6, p.581-583.

Comment author: billswift 03 January 2011 07:50:53PM 2 points [-]

We can add new methods to our lives regardless of age, circumstances, situation, or anything else. It simply requires a willingness to learn. A learning methods that can radically improve our lives doesn't necessarily take a lot of time.

Imagine the difference between a newborn infant and a two-year old. An infant cannot walk, talk, coordinate its body, control its bowels, eat solid food, understand language, or see very well. By two, the child is well on its way to mastering all these. That's how much learning a human can do in two years.

That same transformational amount of learning can take place in any similar period of time. In fact, as an adult, we can learn even faster. All it takes is commitment and willingness.

-- Peter McWilliams, Do It!: Let's Get Off Our Buts

Comment author: Larks 03 January 2011 07:57:17PM 11 points [-]

Evolution has been optimising humans to learn to walk as babies; it hasn't selected (directly, or anywhere near as strongly) for ability to do Topology.

Comment author: ShardPhoenix 04 January 2011 10:29:18AM 2 points [-]

That's true, but an adult will still learn topology a lot faster than a baby :).

Comment author: Normal_Anomaly 06 January 2011 01:09:24PM 0 points [-]

I guess whether "adults learn faster" depends on how you look at it. Adults can learn any given thing faster than babies, but babies are getting the low-hanging fruit.

Comment author: bgaesop 04 January 2011 12:16:57AM 9 points [-]

That same transformational amount of learning can take place in any similar period of time. In fact, as an adult, we can learn even faster. All it takes is commitment and willingness.

All the empirical evidence I've ever seen on the subject indicates that this is the precise opposite of the truth. Could you provide evidence to support this, please?

Comment author: simplyeric 05 January 2011 07:50:42PM 3 points [-]

But an adult will never learn second languages faster than a child, and in fact will never learn a first language at all if not during childhood.

The same is true with sports. I imagine that if an adult has never learned to walk (somehow) that it would take a lot longer than a few months to learn to walk (a newborn doesn't take years to learn to walk...he/she takes years to build muscle strength, and then typically a short time to learn to walk and then immediately run).

I think we all wish McWilliams was correct...I just don't think he is.

Comment author: wnoise 07 January 2011 10:18:02PM 1 point [-]

will never learn a first language at all if not during childhood.

Pretty much true.

But an adult will never learn second languages faster than a child,

There's probably some fading of plasticity, but there's lots of other explanations too. Children learning languages are surrounded by it, and spend all their time learning it. Almost all adult language learning is part time, rather than full time immersion. Fluency in either case requires several years, but "can get by in" is plausibly shorter (weeks to months, say) for an adult learning secondary languages as compared to a child. An adult also often has the advantage of being able to discuss the structure and vocabulary of the target language in already acquired language.

What is nearly universally true is that people's ability to make and distinguish between phones not present in their early environment is very weak. I will probably always have a difficult time distinguishing between "cot" and "caught" because they contain allophones of the same phoneme in my dialect. Same for "merry", "mary" and "marry".

Comment author: jimrandomh 07 January 2011 10:41:10PM *  2 points [-]

What is nearly universally true is that people's ability to make and distinguish between phones not present in their early environment is very weak. I will probably always have a difficult time distinguishing between "cot" and "caught" because they contain allophones of the same phoneme in my dialect. Same for "merry", "mary" and "marry".

When I took a college phonetics course, I and a classful of other students more than doubled the number of distinct sounds we could distinguish and produce. So it can certainly be done. I think adults normally don't because they don't need to, since mapping to their native language's phonology is so much easier. Also, when I took a foreign language in high school, there was no IPA and none of the teachers had the linguistics training necessary to explain the cause of an accent even if they took the time to do so.

But it's certainly true that language learning is automatic for children, and not so automatic for adults.

Comment author: sfb 07 January 2011 07:00:30AM *  0 points [-]

But an adult will never learn second languages faster than a child

Child -> several years to fluency.

Adult -> http://fluentin3months.com/ he started learning other languages in his late twenties.

Comment author: simplyeric 07 January 2011 01:13:22PM 0 points [-]

There is substantial literature that suggests that language acquisition is more difficult, slower, and ultimately less successful in adults than in younger people. I believe it's often mentioned that it's at about 12-14 yrs old that the neural plasticity for language acquisition fades. http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test4materials/secondlangacquisition.htm http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f03/web2/mtucker.html

I never said that it's impossible for an adult to learn a foreign language, just not as fast or effective. That man's blog seems interesting...but I'm quite skeptical that he becomes "fluent" in a language in 2-3 months. I'd be interested to see how fluent he actually is (nevermind the similarities between several of those languages, which aids in acquisition...I've experienced that first hand). Then again, maybe he's an unusual case.

Comment author: Vladimir_M 07 January 2011 09:37:24PM *  2 points [-]

simplyeric:

There is substantial literature that suggests that language acquisition is more difficult, slower, and ultimately less successful in adults than in younger people. I believe it's often mentioned that it's at about 12-14 yrs old that the neural plasticity for language acquisition fades.

I think the confusion here is about what exactly is meant by "learning" a language.

If the goal is to quickly build some rudimentary skill for finding one's way around in a foreign language (which basically boils down to memorizing a lot of words and stock phrases, along with a few very basic syntactic patterns), an intelligent adult will likely be able to achieve it faster because of better work ethic and superior general experience in tackling intellectual problems.

On the other hand, if the goal is to become indistinguishable from a native speaker, then the kid clearly has an advantage no matter how long it takes, because the task is impossible for the overwhelming majority of adults (which for this purpose means anyone over 12 or so). You may become a fluent speaker and perhaps even a good writer, but you're stuck with a foreign accent, and even if you manage to get rid of it with special training, you'll still make occasional subtle but noticeable syntactic and semantic errors.

If the goal is something in-between, the winner will depend on the exact benchmarks of success.

Comment author: sfb 12 January 2011 07:31:14AM 0 points [-]

For the record he says 3 months to fluency is his personal goal, not what he guarantees/claims is always possible.

There are videos of him speaking on his various blogs, but since I don't speak any non-English languages I can't judge his fluency, but I expect he is conversationally competent and not indistinguishable from a native, and yes he has to work hard at it so it's not the same kind of easy learning as children have, which seems to be what your links support, so no argument from me there.

However, he still seems to learn a useful conversational ability in a language in months whereas children take years to do that, so I still think your statement "but an adult will never learn second languages faster than a child" is a strange claim, unless you specifically mean "like a native", which seems a much stricter test than necessary.

From your links:

Probably yes: although any adult can learn a second language, not all will do so with equal results (unlike the case with child language acquisition) (first link)

One doesn't think about how every person has, or rather had at one time, an innate ability to learn a language to total fluency (second link)

Yet the results of child language learning are not equal or always total fluency - plenty of adults barely seem to know what they are saying, cannot express themselves clearly, do not finish sentences 'properly', don't notice the difference between similar words and sentences with different meanings, and people cannot orate without learning to be orators, cannot write without learning to write (I mean author well written texts instead of drivel), cannot tell stories captivatingly without practise, cannot follow official formal documents, and other linguistic things which you might lump in with fluency or might not, leading to potentially very different expectations of a fluent person.

The second link makes several comments including adult lack of opportunity (limited classroom time) which is interestingly mentioned here: http://www.fluentin3months.com/hours-not-years/

Comment author: RichardKennaway 07 January 2011 02:32:39PM 0 points [-]

Mario Pei, who knew an astonishing number of languages (to what degree I don't know), quipped that the first ten are the hardest.

Comment author: wedrifid 04 January 2011 10:39:36AM *  3 points [-]

Eating solid food does not fit in the list of learning tasks! It is a physiological adaption.

(But the general point is good.)

Comment author: Zack_M_Davis 09 January 2011 12:29:12AM *  1 point [-]

As logic stands you couldn't meet a man
Who's from the future
But logic broke, as he appeared he spoke
About the future:
"We're not going to make it"
He explained how the end will come
You and me were never meant to be
Part of the future
All we have is now
All we've ever had was now

---The Flaming Lips, "All We Have is Now" (relevance: anthropic doomsday argument)

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 07 January 2011 12:49:27AM 1 point [-]

If you persuade yourself that you can do a certain thing, provided this thing is possible, you will do it, however difficult it may be. If, on the contrary, you imagine that you cannot do the simplest thing in the world, it is impossible for you to do it, and molehills become for you unscalable.

-- Émile Coué

Comment author: Desrtopa 07 January 2011 04:24:56PM 8 points [-]

This sounds like extremely naive optimism. A vast majority of games in all team sports, for instance, probably end in one team failing to do a possible thing they thought they could do.

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 07 January 2011 08:19:12PM 1 point [-]

Yes, I agree. The author also promoted therapeutic hypnosis. I like the quote in spite of its hyperbole.

Comment author: pjeby 07 January 2011 08:35:58PM 0 points [-]

A vast majority of games in all team sports, for instance, probably end in one team failing to do a possible thing they thought they could do.

Point one: I think you and he are using different definitions of "possible".

Point two: "Win the game" is not a well-specified outcome in hypnosis or NLP, since it relies upon matters outside your control.

Comment author: Abisashi 07 January 2011 08:57:26PM 1 point [-]

What do you think the different definitions of possible they are using are?

Comment author: pjeby 08 January 2011 01:20:59AM 1 point [-]

Definition 1: possible as in "I can imagine winning, therefore it's possible"

Definition 2: possible as in "actually possible for me to do in reality, independent of whether I imagine it to be so"

The quote was using definition 2: that is, "if you persuade yourself that you can do a certain thing, provided this thing is possible [in the real world when you attempt it], you will do it, however difficult it may be." Desrtopa's argument from team sports is using the first.

IOW, just because a given team imagines it possible to win does not mean they can win, because winning is not under their control. They can, however, imagine it possible to execute various skills at a high level of proficiency, and do this, whether they win or not.

In fact, it is generally reputed that the "winningest" teams tend to follow this philosophy: i.e., to practice the execution of basic skills to a near-exclusion of any consideration of "winning". This is quite in keeping with the spirit of the original quote, which is regarding that which is actually possible given a particular set of circumstances (such as the state of the other team) which are not actually under your control.

Comment author: simplyeric 11 January 2011 02:38:08PM 1 point [-]

"IOW, just because a given team imagines it possible to win does not mean they can win, because winning is not under their control"

But just because a team does not win, does not mean it was not possible.

I mean, think of all the things that a person does multiple times but doesn't do every time. Hit a golf ball x yards, run a 7 minute mill, sing on key. The "imagining" has nothing to do with it.

Comment author: Desrtopa 08 January 2011 04:48:26AM *  1 point [-]

In a deterministic context, things that are "possible to do in reality" and things that are necessarily going to happen have complete overlap. In this context, saying that if it's possible then you will do it is vacuous.

In any case where we can't predict future events with certainty, this definition is fairly useless. The colloquial, and more generally functional definition of possible, is that we cannot discount the potential that a thing might happen prior to the fact. Just because we can imagine something happening does not mean that it cannot be discounted as a possibility, and just because something is necessarily going to happen does not mean we can know that ahead of time and discount the possibility of events that would be exclusive with it.

By the practical definition of "possible," the quote is not true, and by the strict deterministic definition the quote is still not true, because one can in fact do things one believes oneself to be incapable of.

If you interpret the quote to use the colloquial definition of "possible," but assume that it only applies to things where no elements of the activity are outside your control, then it's deceptively lacking in meaning, because beyond a trivial scale there is very little one can accomplish where this applies.

Comment author: pjeby 08 January 2011 05:08:29AM 0 points [-]

If you interpret the quote to use the colloquial definition of "possible," but assume that it only applies to things where no elements of the activity are outside your control, then it's deceptively lacking in meaning, because beyond a trivial scale there is very little one can accomplish where this applies.

Fallacy of the grey. An athletic competition involves a great deal of elements where one's control is neither complete nor absent.

it's deceptively lacking in meaning,

If the author had intended deception, he'd have seen no need to include the disclaimer regarding possibility. He effectively said, "if you believe you can, then you can do things that otherwise would be very difficult -- you won't do the truly impossible, of course, just the seemingly impossible."

Since the beginning, not one impossible thing has ever happened. If it happened, it was possible, after all.

Comment author: Desrtopa 08 January 2011 05:40:50AM 2 points [-]

He said that if you believe you can do a thing, and it is possible, you will do it, which is quite different from saying that you can do it. If you add as many qualifications as are necessary for it to be accurate, it is no longer an interesting, or, I would think, particularly inspirational statement.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 22 January 2011 08:08:40PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: Zack_M_Davis 09 January 2011 12:27:44AM *  0 points [-]

Wonderful folks, but part of their puppet show made me wince.

---Summerspeaker, "The joys of solidarity with the technophobic"

Comment author: Dr_Manhattan 04 January 2011 02:01:21AM 0 points [-]

Time is simultaneous, an intricately structured jewel that humans insist on viewing one edge at a time, when the whole design is visible in every facet.

Dr. Manhattan, Watchmen

Comment author: ata 04 January 2011 02:59:08AM *  14 points [-]

"Simultaneous" is a word that you use from within time, to refer to relations described by time. I don't think you'd use the word that way if you were really looking at the universe at the level of timeless physics, really seeing the whole design in every facet. (Though it is the word you'd probably use if you were a human author trying to write a character who sees the deeper reality beyond time, if you yourself don't quite see it. :P) Probably the intuition behind that is imagining looking at spacetime as something like a film reel laid out in front of you, and seeing that it's all already there, no matter what the people in any given frame seem to think. But that puts your perspective outside this universe's apparent time dimension, but inside an imagined outer timeline against which you can continue using words like "simultaneous" or "already". And that's no way to really reduce time; it's a mistake similar to trying to reduce consciousness by putting a little homunculus inside your head that watches your sensory input on a projector screen. It's reducing a black box to some visible machinery interacting with... another copy of the same black box.

I don't think there's any perspective from which "Time is simultaneous" makes sense, unless our universe is actually a static block of already-computed data on the hard drive of some computer in a different reality with its own timelike dimension.

(Edit: Oh, and Dr. Manhattan is being a bit uncharitable by claiming that "humans insist" on seeing things in this limited way. Sure, I consider my lack of omniscience to be a moral failing on my part, but that doesn't mean I'm not trying to do better.)

Comment author: orthonormal 04 January 2011 03:46:36AM 13 points [-]

Hey, no quoting yourself.

Comment author: Dr_Manhattan 04 January 2011 10:09:15AM 9 points [-]

I'm still on Mars, Laurie.