Thanks for the comment, Jennifer. I agree with this:
If the abstract justification falls away, the justifications can sound hollow, and the practices can stop with negative real world consequences.
To your two examples, I'll provide two responses.
Re. Prayer: Given that I suspect god doesn't exist or is probably non-interactive to say the least, I'm put in the position of needing to re-evaluate what really was occurring to transform my life. Obviously something occurred which transformed me from someone who resorted to substances during emotional lows to someone who no longer even feels that urge. I have also been able to quit smoking (which I found far more difficult) and have not had a cigarette in 4.5 years. But what was it?
My current theory (extremely rough) would propose that for believers, "god" represents "that which is perfect" or a moral watchdog of sorts (again, rough... just play along if possible). Meditating on what "what is perfect" would dictate you do with your day and time could be quite helpful. Dan Ariely shows that even when atheist swear on a Bible they are less prone to cheat afterward. Reflecting on "the good" (for believers, god's will) probably produces tangible results.
As such, I have definitely thought of taking up a morning meditation/reflection ritual of some kind. I've not done so, which probably shows that somewhere in there meditation isn't yet worth the extra snoozing I do each morning, but I can at least state I think this would be a valuable replacement for my former practice of prayer. In essence, I think I'm really going to be doing something similar... it's just that now I'll see it as what it always was: self-reflection on the best approaches toward various situations and how to self-improve rather than thinking that asking a non-existent being for the strength to do so was actually doing anything at all.
As a related one... I was in a men's small group with fellow Catholics where we would discuss how god was working in our lives, what we were struggling with, etc. This, too, I think is a helpful practice and would fall into the category of things that have been thrown out by me, currently. It is one like prayer, though, in that I'd like to find a group of individuals interested in discussing life challenges and methods of "remedying deficiency" (as I like to call it). I have not found such a group quite yet but suspect that LW-ers may have something like this or that perhaps something like this can come out of my local Minnesota Atheists group.
Re. AA/12 Steps/Sobriety: This one is more interesting to me. At a point in the past, you're probably right when you say that shedding my belief in god would have made my sobriety precarious. Part of this, however, is how AA teaches one to think about the nature of alcoholism. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point:
For when harboring such feelings we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit. The insanity of alcohol returns and we drink again. And with us, to drink is to die. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 4th ed., pg. 66)
We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. (ibid, pg. 30)
God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. (ibid, pg. 84)
The theme is that of permanent sickness coupled with the dictate that only a "power greater than yourself" can restore you to sanity. AA's common message is that this power can be anything, even a chair or door knob. But when reading from the chapter entitled, "We Agnostics", note this passage:
Imagine life without faith! Were nothing left but pure reason, it wouldn’t be life. But we believed in life—of course we did. We could not prove life in the sense that you can prove a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, yet, there it was. Could we still say the whole thing was nothing but a mass of electrons, created out of nothing, meaning nothing, whirling on to a destiny of nothingness? Of course we couldn’t. The electrons themselves seemed more intelligent than that. At least, so the chemist said. (ibid, pg. 54)
I take this to mean that AA directly advocates at least a form of intentional creator god. AA was built with a Christian foundation, even if they stripped most of this away for the sake of universal accessibility. This passage also suggests (to me) an implication of nihilism if such a creator does not exist.
So, what to make of all of this? In my reflections on the steps themselves, I am not sure what to make of the first three any longer. They require an admission of personal hopelessness, that only a [supernatural] power greater than yourself can fix you, and that, therefore, the only sensible decision is to surrender your will and life (the difference?) to such a being. But what if there is no being granting such transforming power in return for submission/allegiance/dedication!?
The heart of the program, I believe, lies in steps 4-10. In summary, they are to "take inventory" (make a list of wrongdoings and character flaws), and discuss these findings with another (steps 4 and 5); to become willing to have such shortcomings removed (steps 6-7); to make a list of those you've harmed and to amend the relationship (steps 8-9); and to carry out a sort of "mini" version of 4-9 on a daily basis (step 10). This begins to sound like a form of reflection and reflection-inspired action which would begin to remove sources of guilt and self-hatred which could very well have been a prime contributor toward alcohol dependency in the first place.
Edited 10/2011: removed what followed. Personal details I chose to delete.
I've heard a theory that AA is optimized for one sort of (usually male) alcoholic whose stance is "I can handle it" and not useful for another sort (usually female) whose stance is "I don't deserve to have a good life".
You sound like you're in a third category.
This may just be snark, but I think some of the failings of AA correlate with usual descriptions of alcoholic/dry drunk thinking-- in particular, black and white thinking (either you're an alcoholic or you aren't, if you're an alcoholic then you're an alcoholic forever) and lying-- claiming that people who've been alcoholics can never drink safely when this simply isn't true.
This is my first post. I've lurked for quite some time and just recently took the opportunity to join this week. I doubt that anything I post will be groundbreaking, but one thought has been developing that I thought I could at least try writing about. I'd appreciate suggestions regarding the content, but also about appropriateness at LessWrong in general. I have mainly read top level threads, but in my perusal of the discussion area it seems that, for the most part, most things are acceptable... so here goes.
Background
I consider this relevant and somewhat necessary. I also think many may find this interesting. I went through a "conversion experience" approximately 9 years ago next month. In my teens I was a heavy user of drugs and alcohol and was sent to a 12 step boarding school in upstate New York from my home in Milwaukee. After a "breakdown" experience there which amounted to realizing the legal ramifications of my substance usage and receiving a reprieve from those consequences (probation), I believed that god had saved my life. I dedicated myself to the 12 steps [1] and a spiritual path, which took the form of taking seriously my Catholic faith.
I moved to Minnesota for college and joined a Catholic Outreach group. I believed that living out a religious faith was the key to maintaining my sobriety. I also attended AA meetings. I maintained an extremely orthodox and passionate faith for 6 years. I was about as religious as they come -- attending adoration nightly for a month at one point, daily prayer/scripture study, prayer and "discernment" for big decisions (marrying my wife, buying a house, etc.), and so on. And don't view these as pew-warming exercises; I meant everything I did. I was passionate about the second chance I believed I'd been given, thought god was responsible, and had dedicated my life to being his faithful servant and living a holy life.
Turning Point
Last Christmas while visiting my parents, I suddenly began to doubt. I still couldn't tell you exactly why. I simply recall wondering if anyone other than the gospel writers wrote about Jesus. Google let me down. I was very disappointed to find that hardly anyone had even cared to mention him. Now, as an aside, I am almost positive that under different circumstances I would have assumed there was a perfectly reasonable explanation and simply moved on. I had never before actually thought that I might be wrong about my faith. This time was different. The seed was planted. I actually opened up to the idea that I might be wrong. Several key thoughts/developments arose:
It's been one year since my journey to research the "god question" began. You can find out more if you're interested at my blog. I can't say I've reached the level of conclusiveness I was hoping for by now, but I can say that I no longer believe.
Main Point
The previous material was a setup for focusing on the last of the three points above. What compelled me to write this was a discussion with a friend (who's still a believer) over Christmas. I had just listened to Richard Dawkins discuss Noah's ark, and was summarizing for my friend what he had said, highlighting that Noah's ark offers nothing in the way of an explanation for the isolation of particular species to various locations around the globe when compared to the explanation provided by evolution. I should point out that Catholics are not of an inerrant/literalist tradition. All of the Bible is inspired, but that doesn't require it to be factually valid (as odd as that sounds... it's what the dogma proclaims). In fact, Genesis and Revelation have been pointed as being able to be interpreted figuratively by the Church. In any case, in most instances of fundamentalist thought, my friend acknowledges belief in things like a young earth and simultaneous development of life (man riding dinosaurs) as silly.
But then I asked her what she thought about the story of Noah's ark. Silence. More silence. Then I asked her,
"Are you wondering what you're supposed to think right now?"
She responded in the affirmative and asked how I knew. I simply said that it's what I would have been wondering if I were asked something I suspected intersected an official Church teaching but didn't know what the actual teaching was.
This interaction produced two responses: gratitude and caution. First off, I'm grateful that since my non-belief I have been truly liberated to think about many issues -- abortion, stem cell research, homosexuality, etc. It is truly wonderful to earnestly consider these topics in a rational way without my previous requirement to be allegiant-under-all-circumstances-and-rationality-be-damned. I only knew what my friend was thinking because it used to be me.
---
Inquirer: Are you pro-life?
Me: thinking as follows
- All Catholics are pro-life
- I'm Catholic
- Therefore, I'm pro-life
Me: Why, yes I am, sir.
---
It was like this for many topics. I had a bag full of cached thoughts ready to go because rather than making my choices one at time... I had subscribed to the equivalent of a political party, which required me to buy into everything under a particular umbrella whether I had thought about it or not.
So, again, I'm grateful to have been liberated from the umbrella and be free to learn about trusted methods of rationality and make better decisions.
However... my friend's response got me on my guard as well. That was the purpose of sharing this perhaps verbose story in the first place. I wanted it to serve as a reminder to myself and to others about the importance of "owning one's reasons." Her response made me wonder if I have cached thoughts operating in other realms. Do I know why I recommend a vs. b? Or why I subscribe to policy/side-of-debate/method/product x vs. y? And, most importantly, do my answers ever change, even slightly, depending on which "umbrella" I sense I'm standing under? For example, at work when I'm surrounded by those I know to be strongly conservative... do my voiced answers/reasons change compared to when I'm with those I know to be liberal?
My answer to that is, "Yes." There are circumstances where I lessen my conclusions/impact/boldness because I'm letting the "umbrella" I feel I've subscribed to by belonging to a particular group influence my answer. One may respond that this is simply a desire not to offend or be attacked (peer pressure), but I don't think that's necessarily it. I think it's a result of me not "owning my reasons" sufficiently -- knowing the rational approach I took, the supporting evidence behind my decision, the ability recall said evidence, etc.
My reflection has led me to suspect that if my efforts at rationality focused as much on the path as the satisfaction of having arrived at the destination, I'd be more confident and less swayed by wondering what I'm supposed to think in a given situation. In other words, I'd be more confident to state, "The answer is x. Would you like me to show my work?"
Perhaps it's not this easy or simple, but it's my current stab at some recent ideas. I'd appreciate any feedback, especially since this is my first post! I'm happy to be here.