MugaSofer comments on Scientific Self-Help: The State of Our Knowledge - Less Wrong

138 Post author: lukeprog 20 January 2011 08:44PM

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Comment author: MugaSofer 03 January 2013 04:58:54PM *  0 points [-]

Human breasts---and in particular their maintaining significant volume even when not needed for feeding offspring---are very much a signal.

[...]

Breasts implants break this signal. We can predict that if breast implants were free and available to all hunter gatherers that such tribes would soon evolve to be less attracted to breasts.

I understand there may be some debate about the actual purpose of breasts, which is why I phrased this as a hypothetical, but I think I should make it clear that the evolutionary pressures that led to men preferring breasts are separate to the question of whether men are actually evaluating fertility (or whatever) or simply enjoy large breasts for their own sake.

Comment author: wedrifid 03 January 2013 05:46:52PM *  2 points [-]

I understand there may be some debate about the actual purpose of breasts, which is why I phrased this as a hypothetical

What you did was make the following rather direct claim:

The obvious breaking point would be that breast implants, at least, are improving the trait directly rather than improving signaling of said trait.

There in fact isn't a clear breaking point between (some) PUA skills and breast implants. In the same way that breasts can be declared to be "an actual trait that is desired" as well as "a signal about other traits" the ability to perform social acts that combine dominance, humor, rapport and charm can be declared to be "an actual trait that is desired" as well as "a signal about other traits".

Of course there are differences between the two, and further differences between breast implants and makeup but the 'breaking point' most certainly isn't clear!

Comment author: MugaSofer 04 January 2013 04:33:51PM *  0 points [-]

I understand there may be some debate about the actual purpose of breasts, which is why I phrased this as a hypothetical

What you did was make the following rather direct claim:

The obvious breaking point would be that breast implants, at least, are improving the trait directly rather than improving signaling of said trait.

[...]

Of course there are differences between the two, and further differences between breast implants and makeup but the 'breaking point' most certainly isn't clear!

I guess I did phrase that too strongly, but adaptation-executors, not fitness-maximizers.

the ability to perform social acts that combine dominance, humor, rapport and charm can be declared to be "an actual trait that is desired" as well as "a signal about other traits".

Well, yes. As I said here, some traits may be (un)desirable in themselves as well as signalling other (un)desirable traits. The benefit of your signal could outweigh the harm of what you're countersignalling. My point stands.

Comment author: DaFranker 03 January 2013 05:15:19PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to refrain myself from entering Someone-Is-Wrong-On-The-Internet! mode and posting a poorly-thought-out response.

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