nerzhin comments on Trying to hide bad signaling? To the Dark Side, lead you it will. - Less Wrong

6 [deleted] 16 January 2011 07:12AM

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Comment author: nerzhin 17 January 2011 06:23:05PM 1 point [-]

Let's say I'm working with Bob. By exploiting his cognitive biases, I can convince him to do two things that I value. Without such exploitation, I can only convince him to do one. If I do exploit his biases, these bad things happen:

  1. I have less confidence that either of the two things were actually worthwhile.

  2. It is more likely that my enemy will be able to convince Bob to undo the valuable things he did.

  3. I have less trust in Bob in the future, and his total value to me is reduced.

In some cases these effects might outweigh the value of getting two things done rather than one.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 17 January 2011 08:21:32PM 2 points [-]

I agree that manipulating Bob makes it hard to rely on Bob for "sanity checks" of my motives, and that that's a significant loss if Bob would otherwise have been useful in that capacity.

And I can sorta see how it might be true in some cases that manipulating Bob might render him more manipulable by others, and therefore less valuable to me, than he would have been had I not manipulated him. (I have trouble coming up with a non-contrived example, though, so I'm not convinced.)

So, yes, agreed: in cases like those, it makes things worse.

Comment author: wedrifid 18 January 2011 02:52:09AM 2 points [-]

Nobody doubts that doing stupid or ill-considered things with the dark arts could have undesirable consequences.

Note: the parent is another example of a dark arts persuasion technique.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 18 January 2011 05:56:44AM 1 point [-]

Note: the parent is another example of a dark arts persuasion technique.

I think your problem, is you have too broad a notion of what constitutes "dark arts".

Comment author: wedrifid 18 January 2011 07:43:49AM *  1 point [-]

I think your problem, is

I don't accept disagreement with Eugine_Nier as a 'problem'.

you have too broad a notion of what constitutes "dark arts".

There is a time and a place for each of the following:

  • "Grey" arts.
  • Dark arts as defined on the wiki.
  • The alternate version of 'dark arts' that nerzhin presented.

Further, there are instances in each category where the use of dark arts is pro-social. It seems that the term 'dark arts' has become a hindrance to understanding instead of a help. It does not mean evil!