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Kobayashi comments on The annoyingness of New Atheists: declaring God Dead makes you a Complete Monster? - Less Wrong
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This is the first time I've ever written an article that got shot down so violently. I'll admit it is poorly planned and kind of chaotic, but I feel I was misunderstood. While freeing people from religion is a cause I endorse, especially for those that suffer guilt, anguish and pain because of it, rather than those who derive happiness from it, this is not what I am looking for here. What I want to do is to express my points to religious people without coming off as a condescending jerkass Straw Vulcan. And, revently, I have found myself unable to. Despite my best efforts to be respectful and kind, I haven't managed not to hurt theist senstivities. Which baffles me, because I used to be a theist not so long ago, and felt the same pain reading, say, some of Yudkowsky's posts, or anything by Dawkins, and if it weren't for my overwhelming curiosity and the fact that I was almost a born rationalist (something that, as we can see in the Tell Your Rationalist Origin Story thread, is exceedingly and worryingly common for an art that should be accessible to all of humanity) I would have been completely turned off the rationalist project because of its atheistic component, and would have continued to fruitlessly try to be a rational Muslim. And yet I am unable to avoid striking the exact same sour spots I got struck in on my way here.
I don't even remember how that pain felt, but I know it was great, and I want to avoid inflicting it to potential newbies. Ways of avoiding this, is what I am asking for.
Raw_Power: " While freeing people from religion is a cause I endorse..."
I don't care enough to downvote either your post or your comment, but I will point out that the only people who are ever truly free from religion are the ones who care enough and/or are strong enough to free themselves. Anyone else has merely transferred their allegiance to a different authority. Quit worrying about saving the world; it smacks of a poor understanding of basic human psychology - both with respect to your own motivations and those of others.
I don't get your meaning. Freeing yourself, how do you do that? Why reinvent the wheel? While I was on the straight path to rejecting religion, I could have kept inventing excuses and making stuff up forever, I might even have become a religious expert. I seriously considered becoming a theologian at some point and work to bring out the True Original Islam As Intended By The Prophet (TM) which both the reactionary bigots and the westernized "moderns" were not following. If it hadn't been for people like Yudkowsky who were able to speak to me in a language I shared and point out the massive failings of my system, I would have continued to invent one patch after another, the same way smart, strong people have been doing for centuries.
And I don't see what's wrong with wanting to Save The World, that was the frame that has directed all of my actions ever since I had a concept of what that meant. Of course, Akrasia is a bitch, and Behaving In A Way Such As If All Behaved Like You You Would Like This World Better can be freaking hard, but I've never given up. How is that bad self-psychology?
"Freeing yourself" happens when you understand why people have religion, when you ask the questions that bring to light the inconsistencies between belief and behavior, etc. It's not about finding The Truth.
Similarly, "saving the world" operates from the arrogant presumption that what you have is inherently better than what they have. It implies an active belief that they should change, not you. Of course, since you are on the right side, they should look up to you, take wisdom from you, etc. It puts you in a position of power relative to them. Having power over one's fellow man and believing that one has a better knowledge about what is right and what is true is the heart of all that is wrong with religion. Freeing oneself from religion is twofold - rejecting the idea that others hold power over you via their relationship to The Truth, and rejecting the idea that you are superior to others by virtue of your relationship to The Truth. Very difficult indeed...
But reversed stupidity is not intelligence. Some people do have beliefs or methods of thought that are better than others, that give them a more accurate understanding of the world and if used properly, can make them more successful and powerful. The mistake of religion is not deciding that some people's knowledge or beliefs are better than others, and that other people should learn from them. Entirely rejecting that premise can lead to some very unfortunate results.
Whether having superior beliefs makes one superior oneself... I think that's a question that needs to be dissolved. What kind of superiority are you talking about, and what does it entail?
I consider the me of today to be superior to the me of the past because of the things I've learned and the ways I've changed my mind. If I met the me of the past, it would be only appropriate for him to regard me as a teacher, and hopefully the me of the future would be able to perform the same role for the me of today. But of course, I shouldn't be condescending to my past self simply for having been more wrong than I am.
Indeed you do make it sound quite hard...