CarlShulman comments on Just a reminder: Scientists are, technically, people. - Less Wrong

6 Post author: PhilGoetz 20 March 2009 08:33PM

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Comment author: CarlShulman 21 March 2009 02:33:43AM *  1 point [-]

Bryan Caplan's research on differences of opinion between expert economists and others finds (in his datasets) that there are big effects of education and IQ, bigger than liberal or conservative ideological effects, but the latter still remain: people with graduate degrees agree more with economists, but conservative PhDs in industry and liberal PhDs in academia tend to disagree with each other.

"a failure to grasp the empirical fact that personhood resides in brain structure: no neurons, no person."

Do you think that personhood is really an 'empirical fact'? How would you empirically measure when a developing fetus or infant's (or toddler's, depending on your view of personhood) brain becomes a person without a value-laden definition? Likewise for temporary or permanent brain damage.

Comment author: komponisto 21 March 2009 03:26:58AM 4 points [-]

Do you think that personhood is really an 'empirical fact'?

I wouldn't claim that current science easily resolves all questions about personhood; but it does locate the phenomenon within the brain as opposed to anywhere else. Neurons (or, more broadly, things with a similar function) are a necessary condition that may or may not be sufficient. The extent to which a fetus, toddler, or Alzheimer's patient possesses personhood may be legitimately debatable -- but the question of whether or not an embryo is a person is surely settled: it isn't.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 21 March 2009 07:40:15AM 1 point [-]

I think you have a different concept of 'person' in mind than needed. We can define 'person' as "that which can think, reason, and has personality" or something similar (this is roughly what I think you mean by 'person'), but that isn't really relevant to the question. Like Carl said, we are looking for a value laden definition here - something to tell us whether we should use those embryos or not.

Honestly, all of this definition nonsense is misleading. We don't really care about the definition of 'person.' What we want is to sort out our values. Embryo's certainly aren't in my utility function, and that's all that matters. Defining 'person' is superfluous.

Comment author: SoullessAutomaton 21 March 2009 02:49:48AM 3 points [-]

Do you think that personhood is really an 'empirical fact'? How would you empirically measure when a developing fetus or infant's (or toddler's, depending on your view of personhood) brain becomes a person without a value-laden definition? Likewise for temporary or permanent brain damage.

Is personhood really a binary proposition at all, or a matter of degree?

Of course, for almost any non-incoherent definition of personhood, the degree of personhood during the first trimester is roughly nil.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 21 March 2009 04:21:31PM 3 points [-]

We need laws that incorporate continuous functions.